The Rest Is Politics · · Transcript & summary by WhipScribe
Two people who have each suffered extreme loss disagree civilly about assisted dying, and the MP who led the bill explains in detail why she thinks it was blocked.
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“Politics is about numbers. And it was all about turnout.” Kim Leadbeater · at 19:00 — open in the transcript →
“Hospices in this country are only a third funded by government, two thirds funded by people selling old jumpers on the high street.” Lindsay Nicholson · at 21:40 — open in the transcript →
Alastair Campbell sits two people from his book on perseverance side by side: Kim Leadbeater, the Labour MP for Batley and Spen who took the seat after her sister Jo Cox was murdered in 2016, and Lindsay Nicholson, a former magazine editor and one of his oldest friends. Both have lived through the worst kind of loss, and the conversation keeps returning to how differently that loss settles. Nicholson lost her husband John Merritt, the Observer's chief reporter, to a rare blood cancer while pregnant, then her daughter Ellie to the same disease, and only broke down years later. Leadbeater says she can describe Jo's killing in detail yet has never grieved it, having spent a decade working flat out instead.
The sharpest stretch is the assisted dying bill Leadbeater carried through the Commons. She separates the principle, where she respects opponents, from the process, which she calls undemocratic: a small group of unelected peers tabled around 1,200 amendments, and a later Commons vote fell short largely because supporters were absent. Nicholson agrees with her on far more than she expected. Her objection is about sequence, since she wants hospices properly funded, end-of-life wards given privacy and coercion of the elderly prosecuted first. Leadbeater answers that palliative care cannot relieve every death and that the real request from dying people is control.
Underneath both arguments sits a view of public life. Leadbeater traces Jo's politics to work for Glenys Kinnock and humanitarian groups, and argues that because most voters were never taught who does what, MPs absorb anger meant for others, which is why civility work at the Jo Cox Foundation still matters to her.
Labour MP for Batley and Spen and sister of Jo Cox, the MP murdered in 2016. She led a private member's bill to legalise assisted dying that cleared the Commons before stalling.
Kim Leadbeater told Alastair Campbell on The Rest Is Politics that the bill lost on numbers rather than argument. When it returned to the Commons, enough supporters were away on overseas trips, at weddings or otherwise absent, while opponents who believed the law went against God's will turned out in force. She insists she could have accepted a defeat in a fair process, but not this one.
Kim Leadbeater says a relatively small number of unelected peers, some of them previously rejected by voters, tabled about 1,200 amendments to slow the bill down. She calls some unnecessary and some cruel, such as requiring each assisted death to be filmed, barring travel overseas and demanding a pregnancy test from every applicant, men and post-menopausal women included.
Lindsay Nicholson says she shares Kim Leadbeater's wish for the best possible end-of-life care, and objects mainly to the order of priorities. She wants hospices properly funded, general wards given privacy for the dying, and coercive control of elderly people properly reported and prosecuted. Once those are fixed, she says, people can choose as they wish. She also fears hospice funding would shrink further under an assisted dying law.
Kim Leadbeater argues that governments can improve palliative and social care and pass assisted dying at the same time. She says she has met people with throat, mouth, bowel and pancreatic cancers whose good palliative care still could not meet their needs, and that the deeper request is for control. The bill covered fewer than 1% of deaths, people with under six months to live.
Kim Leadbeater says she can talk openly about Jo Cox's 2016 murder but has never emotionally processed it. She sees every loss as a core absence wrapped in layers, and Jo's death carried extra ones: the media, politics, the criminal trial and the knowledge Jo was killed for who she was. Instead of grieving, she says, she has spent ten years going flat out to turn the worst event into positive action.
Lindsay Nicholson's husband John Merritt, chief reporter of the Observer, died aged 35 of a rare blood cancer when their daughter Ellie was three and Nicholson was four months pregnant with Hope. Ellie was later diagnosed with the same cancer at nine, puzzling consultants at Great Ormond Street, and died in 1998 after eight months of treatment. Nicholson later survived breast cancer.
Kim Leadbeater says that perhaps half or more of an MP's inbox concerns things MPs do not handle, because constituents mistake them for lawyers, police officers or councillors. Nobody ever explained to the public who does what, she argues, so frustrated people shout at whoever they can reach, feeding hostility in politics. Better political education is her remedy, alongside civility work by the Jo Cox Foundation.
Our own transcript of the public episode, with a timestamp about every 90 seconds. Tap a timestamp or the link button on a paragraph to copy a link that opens this page there.
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2:34Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com slash restpolitics. Cost and coverage may vary. Welcome back to The Rest Is Percivilliance, the mini the mini series that we're doing on perseverance we're going to be talking to some of the people in the book and we brought two of them together today because they've been through similar but as you'll hear very different experiences the first is lindsey nicholson now lindsey is one of my oldest closest friends i've known her for almost 50 years and she was married to my best friend in newspapers, a guy called John Merritt. John died aged 35 of a very rare blood cancer at a time when Lindsay was pregnant with her then unborn daughter, Hope. And then to make matters worse
3:19for Lindsay, a few years later, their daughter Ellie Ellie, died, age nine, of the same rare cancer. Lots more she's had to contend with. She's had breast cancer. She had a second marriage which ended truly horribly, and with her locked up in a police cell over spurious claims about assault. So much to deal with. And yet, if you bumped into her on a train or if you sat down with today you'd see somebody very positive very happy-go-lucky with a really warm and outgoing look on life. Kim Ledbeater is an MP she's a Labour MP for Batley and Spen and prior to that her sister did that job Jo Cox who was murdered in 2016 during the Brexit referendum by a far-right fascist currently serving a long sentence in jail.
4:08And Kim is a remarkable woman. She never wanted to be a politician, but she had, if you like, politics thrust upon her. She's also digging deep in her own reserves of perseverance right now because she's just tried to get the law changed on assisted dying and she's failed. Both of them have got extraordinary stories to tell. I'm very pleased that we managed to get them on the sofa together. I think epitomize in many ways perseverance. One of whom, Lindsay, I've known for almost half a century. A long, long, long time and who has gone through an awful lot in life. Lost her husband, who was my best best friend while she was pregnant with their second child who's hope wonderful yet now wonderful young woman with her own child then lost their
5:11first daughter who has had cancer who has survived a pretty horrible ending to a second marriage and who around the same time lost her job as well. And who, if you met and just bumped into her on a train, you would think was a positive, happy-go-lucky, wonderful human being. And then Kim Ledbetter, who is an MP. And the only reason Kim is an MP, really, if we boil it down, is because her sister, Jo Cox, who I also knew, was an MP who was murdered during the Brexit referendum. So two extraordinary women who've had very, very different experiences, but who I've put into my book as examples to me of the positivity of Percivalience. Okay. Now, as Kim looks like she's about to break down crying, I'm going to go first to you, Lindsay. When you set out all the bad stuff that happened to you, I sometimes do wonder, even though I know you so well, I do often wonder how I honestly do. Sometimes I think on the way here, I think, yeah, that is quite a lot. The thing is, you don't think that at the time. At the time, you are just kind of nose up against the rock face doing what you can do. So, I don't tend to toss it up. I mean, there have been periods that have, as you know,
6:46that have been really bad. 2017, most of 2017 was pretty much a write-off for me. I was very, very low. And I think I had the breakdown that I should have had 20 odd years earlier when John and Ellie died and I'd kept going and then it hit me 2017 and yeah what can you do and just John and Ellie um I mean is there a day you don't think about one or both oh it's not an hour that I don't think about them they are with me always i look at their picture last thing at night and just to those who don't know your story and by the way i say in my book i quote both of your books which are extraordinary one which is about essentially about grief and then the second book really about how you've rebuilt your life since just tell just tell us what actually happened, how they died, when it was.
7:47So John and I met when we were very young in our early 20s around the same time that you met Fiona and in our early 30s we both had dream careers really. John was the chief reporter of the Observer newspaper, and we had a daughter, Ellie. And then John was diagnosed with what was then referred to as leukemia, is now a very rare form of blood cancer. He fought it. He was at work one Saturday. He used to go into work in between bouts of chemotherapy, and he died on a Monday morning. Ellie was three years old and I was four months pregnant with Hope, which was terrible, as you can imagine. You were there, you were there, you know it was terrible. And I sort of pulled back from that. My friends were
8:42really important. My family was really important. My career, I worked in magazines, was really important to me. And then absolutely bolt from the blue was that Ellie was diagnosed with the same form of blood cancer when she was nine years old. It is a very rare form of blood cancer. Not much is known about it. It's not known particularly to be inherited. I mean, I remember arriving at Great Ormond Street and the consultants running up and down the corridors saying, we've never seen this before. Has she been in contact with any chemicals? You know, they couldn't understand it. She fought it for eight months. I stayed with her in hospital, but sadly, she died in 1998. So, Lindsay, you having lost John to blood cancer and then lost Ellie to blood cancer,
9:31then you got breast cancer yourself. Did that frame the way you dealt with it, your prior experience? Was it of any benefit to you? Was it useful or did you just feel, oh my God, here we go again. Some yet more shit has happened in my life. I assumed I was going to die because in my experience, people had cancer, they died. And so when I was diagnosed, I just thought I was going to die and made preparations for that, really. And I didn't really make the difference between this very rare blood cancer that John and Elliot suffered from and breast cancer, which amazingly is not 100% curable or treatable, but has got much better statistics in its favor. I'll never forget, I was waiting for my radiation treatment and I'd been waiting an hour and a half. I went up to the receptionist
10:35and I said, excuse me, because I was a magazine editor at the time. Excuse me, do you know who I am? I've been waiting an hour and a half. She said, oh, there's much sicker people in front of you and that was the first time that i realized that i probably wasn't going to die oh some lovely rudeness just to make you feel better yeah i think rudeness sometimes can often bring you back down to earth a bit we'll come back to all of that but kim when when joe died just talk us through where you were what you were doing how you found out and then kind of how you just coped with it in the immediate. I don't think I have coped with it. And I suppose that's the interesting thing about grief, isn't it?
11:13That it looks different for different people and for different circumstances. But for me, I mean, I had, unlike Lindsay, who's had a huge amount of trauma in her life for a prolonged period of time. I'd had 40 years of having a really great life, lovely life, no issues, no major dramas or traumas and things were good. Our family was nothing exceptional. We were a very normal family. I mean, what's normal? But for us, you know, we were just a... You sound a lot like Andy Burnham. Just normal. Just normal from the north. But we were, we were just a normal family. Growing up in Yorkshire, you know, Jo and I were very close. They were just the two of us as sisters. Just normal from the north. But we were, we were just a normal family growing up in Yorkshire.
11:46You know, Joe and I were very close. They were just the two of us as sisters. We'd got the best parents ever, loving family, loads of mates, good friends. You know, and six weeks before Joe was killed, we just had my 40th birthday and I'd hired a big house up in North Yorkshire and I got about 25 of my mates to come and we had a massive party celebration and everybody said, oh, Joe won't come. She's an MP now. She'll be doing MP things. And actually she did come and we had a massive party celebration and everybody said oh Jo won't come she's an MP now she'll be doing MP things and actually she did come and we had just the most wonderful weekend and that's one of my most precious memories of Jo but six weeks later
12:15she was dead so I think how I look at loss is at the heart of every loss is you losing that that person from your life and then the circumstances of that loss are like the layers of every loss is you losing that person from your life. And then the circumstances of that loss are like the layers of an onion. So everything around that loss depends on what it looks like and feels like. So up until Joe being murdered, I'd only ever really lost my grandparents. So it was very much the natural order of things. And it was sad. It was upsetting. But I think my granddad Arthur was 92 when he passed away. So I understood what it was like to lose someone from your life. But, you know, when you lose somebody in,
12:50for us, clearly such horrific circumstances, in such public circumstances, and you are thrust into the worlds that we were thrust into as a family, whether that was the media side of it, the politics side of it, the criminal justice side of it, all those different aspects to it just put so many extra layers on it. And knowing that someone you love was murdered, intentionally killed. And I think that again, is very, very different from the tragedy of losing someone to an illness, which is horrific. Jo was killed because of who she was. So you put all those different layers on top of what happened. And I don't think I've processed any of that. I can talk about it. It surprises me how I can talk about it very openly, but I haven't emotionally dealt with it.
13:30And I think that's why I'm probably the worst person to have on to talk about grief, because I don't think I have actually grieved. What I've done is just go 100 miles an hour for the last 10 years and trying to create as much positive energy and action as possible for the worst of circumstances. On the day itself, what does it... Because as you say, Lindsay had the illness. You could see people failing and you prepare yourself in a way, even though it's a horrible, horrible shock when it happens. And I'll never forget the day that Ellie died and Lindsay just sat there talking to her like she was still alive it was terrible it was hot you know it's heartbreaking for everybody but you you've got your situation like you're literally just going about your
14:12business and you get the news presumably from where if you just you hear that your sister's been killed yeah i got a phone call i got a phone call saying that she'd been attacked and for me i don't quite understand how this would work but I instinctively knew this was not going to be good news. From that moment on, I remember I started shaking uncontrollably. But again, you do, as Lindsay sort of described, to some degree, you go into autopilot and, you know, right, okay, what do we need to do? What can we do? Because you're in a situation of which you have no control. And so you have to start to think about the things that you can control. But to be honest, Alistair, like those first few weeks, months, maybe even the first year is just a blur to me.
14:48I haven't dealt with it again as much as I'm able to talk about it. I haven't processed it. But I think for me, I mean, I've always been a sort of a doer. I've always been right. Let's sort this out. Let's take charge. And I just thought about my parents I thought about Joe's children I thought about all the other people who are going to be massively impacted by this and I thought right someone's going to have to be strong in the middle of this and I think that's going to have to be me that was for those other people but I think it's probably also for me as well because if I just focus on keeping going and trying to say and do the right things then at least that gives me something to sort of think about but you know you know, the reality is, look, you've got two people here who've had
15:28dreadful things happen in their lives, but sadly, we're not that unique. Things happen to normal human beings every day. You know, I know what happened to Joe was a pretty unique set of circumstances, but people do lose people every day and people deal with horrendous things happening. I went to the recent first ever National Day for Remembering Victims and Survivors of Terrorism. And I met people in that room who have all had horrific things happen in their lives, just normal people, whether it's the Manchester Arena attack, whether it's going back 25 years now, 9-11. These things happen to people. And what we see when these horrific things happen is the true strength of human resilience. And it is outstanding and it's people like that i think that also inspired me to try and keep going just
16:11on politics so you know i'm guessing politically you're gonna have to dig quite deep into your resources of perseverance to get over what's just happened which is you had a private member's bill you get drawn in the ballot in the ballot you decide to try to get legislation for the assisted dying bill it goes through all the stages in the commons you get these small group of peers in the house of lords put down hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of amendments try to slow the thing up it's brought back by a colleague of yours in this session of parliament and it fails in the house of commons so and we maybe talk about the issues because i know lindsey's got slightly different views to yours on this but do you now feel that this is a battle
16:57you've lost and therefore you give up or do you know far from it far from it i mean it's an issue that that's not going away and and um the absolutely continue. I mean, it's still very raw for me because as we're recording this, this only happened a few days ago and I am really struggling with what happened. Not on the issue itself. We not got the bill through in 2024 and 2025. I think I would have been accepting of that because it would have been a fair process and we would have done all the work that we did and believe me hundreds and hundreds of hours went into that bill and it is an extremely robust piece of legislation which I would stand by but what happened recently was just simply undemocratic so we did what we needed to do in the House of Commons we did all that work on it and I
17:40sat up till one o'clock in the morning on the bill committee and met with opponents you know had loads and loads of meetings and discussions. The civil servants were outstanding. The people who write legislation were outstanding. You know, this was a very, very thorough process. And we sent that bill to the House of Lords. The House of Commons voted for it twice, as we do. And then, as you say, a relatively small number of people in the House of Lords who are unelected, some of whom were not only unelected, but were actually rejected by the electorate without naming names. And they took it upon themselves to table 1,200 amendments, some of which were at best unnecessary, at worst cruel, saying people would have to have their
18:16assisted death filmed, saying they couldn't travel overseas, saying that everybody would have to have a pregnancy test, whether you were a post-menopausal woman or a man. You know, it was, and I sat through those Fridays in the House of Lords. I watched Lord Faulkner, who's become a close friend of mine, go through those debates and deal with some of the crap, quite frankly, that he had to deal with. I watched people get my name wrong, get my constituency wrong, some of which I think was probably done intentionally. It was horrible. So we should never have had to go through the Commons again. That's what I'm more cross about now. I'm very respectful of the different views on the issue. Very respectful of that.
18:48And I always have been. And I've tried to conduct the debate with respect and civility throughout. What I don't understand is why the numbers of Labour MPs who supported you first time round fell. It was, well, you know, Alistair, politics is about numbers. And it was all about turnout. So we had quite a lot of people who couldn't be there for the vote, sadly. So there were trips overseas, there were weddings, there were various reasons why people couldn't be there, which I think, I don't know if that makes it worse, probably, maybe. I don't know. I don't know. But it is a numbers game, isn't it, ultimately? And ultimately, if you think, and we'll probably touch on religion at some point, but if you think that it is not God's will for this law to pass,
19:28you will turn out and you'll do everything you can to stop it. And we saw some evidence of that last week. And again, I respect that, but that isn't where the public are. And I cannot tell you the emails, the messages that I have had from people over the last few days saying, A, they're absolutely devastated. B, how dare people choose to take away their choice. Very, very limited set of circumstances. People who've literally got less than six months to live have to have a diagnosis, have to go through various different stages. The reality is lots of people will pass away before they go through those stages because the process is so robust. A lady on the train just folded a little piece of paper up to me on my way back up and I opened it up and she said, thank you so much
20:01for everything that you've done. I'm so sorry. It didn't go well today. And that tipped me over the edge. So that is where the public are the argument will not go away the debate will not go away the direction of travel internationally is very much that people want this choice france have just passed legislation we've got other countries so yeah it's still quite raw and i'm deeply deeply upset through the assisted dying debate um either on the policy but also when it started to get really tough for you personally are you are you sort of chatting away in your head yeah i mean i think when it came to that particular issue joe was with me on a number of levels um partly because of how she handled difficult subjects and again was always very respectful always trying to bring
20:41people together to hear different opinions and different views and that that's how i operate, but very much how Joe operated. So it was a challenging issue. So I thought about, you know, Joe's style of doing things. But I think also because of my own experiences of death and dying, which we all have, I think the thing for me around losing Joe was like, there was absolutely no control about that situation for any of us. And I think what resonated with me with so many families that I met was that they were just asking for control. And when you've lost people in a situation where it is just unbelievably out of control, I think that kind of resonated with me as well. Lindsay, what is it? What's your sort of basic opposition?
21:21Actually, I think him and I feel the same way that we think that people should have the best possible care whatever that looks like for me i feel my husband died in the hammersmith hospital on a general ward no privacy curtain i mean it was just it was shocking hospices in this country are only a third funded by government, two thirds funded by people selling old jumpers on the high street. I don't think we should be funding hospices like that with old clothes. For elderly people, coercive control is very, very underreported in this country and under prosecuted. Get all those solved. I'm fine. I'm with it. People do whatever they want. dying, then you wouldn't even get that third of support for hospices that we have now,
22:28that the hospice movement would be the ones to suffer. Yeah, and I think the government were very clear that that wouldn't be the case. And again, I really welcome the comments of the Prime Minister around his focus on palliative care and social care. Absolutely. But, you know, governments should be clever enough to do all those things together. And what they shouldn't do is penalise a very small number of people, literally less than 1% of deaths who might want to make the choice of having assisted death in their darkest days and their final few months at the expense of doing all those other things as well. We can do all those things. We should be doing all those things. Those were exactly the same arguments that were made 10 years ago when the bill was last debated.
23:00So, you know, politicians need to step up and sort all those other things out as well. Of course, they do. And we can do all those things. But the other reality is, you know, politicians need to step up and sort all those other things out as well. Of course they do. And we can do all those things. But the other reality is, you know, even with the best palliative care, I've met people with hideous throat cancers, mouth cancers, bowel cancers, pancreatic cancers. They have had good palliative care. They have had pain relief. It cannot meet everybody's needs. And also around the choice and the control element of it. Part of it is about pain for people. But the big thing is about control because they've had everything else in their life
23:27taken away from them in terms of the things that they control. They are dying and they know they're going to die. So the comfort and the reassurance that it provides people, and this is how people describe it, of just knowing if they wanted to, and about a third of people who start the pathway don't use it, but if they wanted to, it's there for them to relieve their suffering and to have that control. You know, we can't have the inequity of Dignitas in Switzerland, where if you've got 15 grand, you can go, that's also traumatic, just for the record. I've heard some horrendous stories of that and waving loved ones off in the back of a taxi, you know. So we've got an inequitable and an unacceptable situation as it stands. And that's why four former directors of prosecutions are
24:03supportive of a change in the law. So there's different layers to the argument, the legal, the moral, and then there's, of course, the bill. And interestingly, when people have said to me, MPs and other people, well, there's just not enough safeguards. And I said to them, oh, would you like to talk me through which clause you're particularly concerned about? They don't know because they've not even read it. And that's really disheartening as someone who has spent months and months and months. And I can tell you about clause 12 and I can tell you about clause 5 and i can tell you about all the work that went into that bill because it was bloody hard work so the narrative and the media have to help with this
24:31as well from people who are ideologically fundamentally opposed oh it's a dreadful bill it's got no safeguards in it come and sit down and i said this to everybody in the commons in the laws come and sit down in a room with me and talk me through what your concerns are some people did lots of people did. Lots of people didn't. This is why you don't like politics. Yeah, it's one of the many reasons, to be honest, Alistair. There's many more as well. Yeah, yeah. Did Jo love politics? Jo loved it, yeah. Yeah, I was at the finish. Yeah, Jo was a very political. I mean, she was politicised sort of during her, we didn't grow up in a political family, so we wouldn't sit around the dinner table talking about, you know, political issues.
25:04We always were very focused on human beings and human issues, but they are all political issues. So I guess I went on my own journey realizing that. But when she went to uni, I think that journey sort of started. And then when she went to work in the European Parliament for Gladys Kinnock, you know, she really became much more politicized. But then working in international humanitarian aid organisations, she realised that, you know, you need politics to make a difference on those big international issues as well. So, you know, she, yeah, she was politicised much earlier than I was, I would say. But again, I think the other thing which I realised later in life is that, as I say, everything is politics until we have better political education in schools and beyond
25:46I don't think we're ever going to get the kind of politics that we want because people just don't understand it and you'll know from your time spent with MPs like the stuff you get in your inbox a lot of it 50% maybe more is not about being an MP like people think you're a lawyer they think you're a police officer they think that you're a councillor of either type you know know, and that's not their fault. You cannot blame the public, but they've never had it explained to them who does what. And that partly feeds in then to the hostility in politics and public life because people are angry because they want answers to their problems. They don't quite know who to go to and therefore they want to shout at someone. And that's where the work
26:21that you do around civility in public life is so important. And the Joe Cox Foundation continues to work on that. And I've tried throughout my five years as an MP to be respectful to everybody, even those that I profoundly disagree with. I've never tried to personalize it. I've never been rude about people. Maybe I have at home, but not publicly because that's not helpful. Yeah. But the toxicity. Yeah, I've heard you talk about Michael Gove and Therese Coffey every now and then. I've had a few words. I've heard a bit about Michael Gove and Therese Coffey every now and then. I've had a few words privately more than publicly. There is so much that I get into with Kim, Leadbeater and Lindsay, my friend.
26:55And this really is one of my favourite interviews I've ever done. There's some fascinating things coming up on unprocessed grief, on how much Kim's sister, Jo Cox, still informs so much of what she does as an MP. And we'll also get into an agreeable disagreement between Lindsay and Kim on the assisted dying bill. And Lindsay, I should warn you, has a story that is pretty harrowing. But she and Kim are both in their very different ways, incredible examples of what I mean by perseverance. So to hear the rest of the episode and also upcoming episodes with David Blunkett and Clark Carlyle, the former footballer, who several times tried to take his own life and now runs or is head of one of the biggest mental health charities in the country. Sign up at therestispolitics.com.
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