582. Netanyahu’s Fight for Survival and the Gaza Film That Shocked Rory and Alastair

0:00I'm holding two thoughts in my mind about Israel. The first is that this election could be extraordinarily important. The Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, has been in power on and off since 1996, and that 30 years of political domination could be about to come to an end. And the result is going to be very close. For Israelis, this feels extraordinarily important. At stake are questions like what to do about Israeli institutions after Netanyahu? Who was responsible for October the 7th? Should ultra-Orthodox Jews be forced to serve in the military? How to interact with Arab parties? These are questions about what Israel is, how citizens relate to one another, who belongs in that society. And for

0:47Israelis, they're taking place at a time when they feel that they are at existential risk, that their state is at risk. But I'm holding a second thought in my mind also, because I've just watched a documentary called Naza. And in this, two Israeli filmmakers sit down with former Israeli intelligence officers who describe using artificial intelligence to identify suspected Hamas operatives, track them down through their phones to their homes, and then kill them with their families. Watching it, I felt I was seeing the bureaucracy of mass murder, how human lives are turned into categories, permissions, percentages, and in the end, how all these systems lead to 70,000 deaths, 20,000 of whom are dead children,

1:34and how little any of this features in the Israeli election debate. So today, I want to hold two very difficult things in mind. The numbers, what it takes to get a majority. I want to look secondly at why it feels to Israelis as though there is so much at stake. I want to look at the possibility that in the end, this election may change very little for Palestinians and very little for the way that the world views Israel. This episode is powered by Fuse Energy. Most energy companies are counting on you doing absolutely nothing. Not questioning what you're paying, not switching, just letting your tariff roll on, which is costing you hundreds of pounds every year. But the apathy goes deeper than our

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4:01Be smart. Get wise. T's and C's apply. This episode is brought to you by NordVPN. We work out ways to protect ourselves from unwanted things every day. Okay, Rory, how do you protect yourself from small talk? I say, very good to see you. I've got to get on to get my kids from school. Yeah, you also have another one that you use quite a lot. You say, I must go. I'm on Jordan time. That's good. I'm on Jordan time. I like that. Okay, how do you protect yourself from arguing with your co-host? I just watch you argue with other people. No, I have this tactic when I think I'm losing my temper, I just rub my thumb and my index finger together. That's what I do, and I just calm down. Yeah, that's cool.

4:44And how do you protect yourself from online scams? Well, the answer is I find NordVPN useful for that. It's not just a VPN app. They've built in next gen antivirus block scams, phishing attacks before they reach you. So you can carry on knowing you're secure. To get the best discount on your NordVPN plan, go to nordvpn.com slash rest is politics. You'll get four extra months free on the two year plan, plus a 30 day money back guarantee. The link is in the episode description. Welcome to Restless Politics Question Time with me, Rory Stewart. And me, Alistair Campbell. So Maddy's question, what is at stake for Israelis and Palestinians in the pivotal parliamentary elections taking place in Israel

5:29next week? Well, a lot is the answer. But what will change, I think is very, very hard to read. For a start, the polls are extraordinarily tight between these two blocks. It's a very proportional system, virtually impossible for a single party to get a majority. And you essentially have a block on one side that is pro-Bibi Ben-Yu and Netanyahu, the longest serving prime minister in Israeli history. term if he's been in and out of power for you know several decades but i think i think it'd be seventh term as prime minister and you've got his party likud you've got the ultra orthodox parties you've got the far right parties and you've got those that i think you would put on the right and on the religious right of the israeli debate And then the opposition change block is made up of four or five parties.

6:28Some of the smaller parties maybe probably won't cross the threshold of 3.25% of the vote you have to get to get into the Knesset. They're sort of operating a truce between each other, but they're not maybe as united as they should be at this stage of the election. If Netanyahu loses and is no longer prime minister after this, then it is probably going to be this guy, Gaddy Eisenkot, who is somebody who's pretty strong character. He's got a lot of kind of empathetic support because he actually has lost a son in the post-October 7th conflict. But what will actually change for Israel? I think there's a lot less between them than maybe there would be in a traditional historic Israeli election, because it would normally be a kind of left-right thing.

7:19This is not left-right. This is kind of Netanyahu, very right wing. And then it's an opposition bloc that, for example, none of them are talking about a two state solution. None of them are talking about possibly going into coalition with the Arab parties that are also standing in this election. So I think we're going to see a lot of noise. We're going to see a lot of excitement and a lot of hype. But in the end, it comes down to is Netanyahu going to survive as prime minister or not? And if he doesn't survive, what that will mean in terms of change, other than change in leadership, I don't think has become clear from this campaign. I don't actually think we're seeing that much in terms of what the Eisencourt

8:03and the other part of the opposition change block, what they actually want to do with the country. Well, to step back at the macro picture for a second, Gil Hoffman, who's an incredibly well informed analyst of Israeli politics, says that this is an election defined by animosity. Animosity against Netanyahu, animosity against the Arabs, and animosity against the ultra-Orthodox Jews. In that case, particularly around the fact that they are refusing to have their children drafted into the military at a time when many Israelis are exhausted by their service at the front line. And that seems to be the only thing holding together this funny coalition. Funny is a weird way of putting it, because it includes figures

8:47like Avigol Lieberman, who's come out as an anti-Netanyahu figure, but he is very, very right-wing. I mean, it would be a mistake to see the anti-Netanyahu faction as being a left-wing faction. Avigol Lieberman, I think he's a really interesting example of what might happen in this election. He's somebody who could end up with only six or seven seats. He represents, particularly his vote-based tradition, he was Jews from the former Soviet Union. He was in Likud. He was Netanyahu's chief of staff. He served as a foreign minister. And he could be the kind of figure who oddly could emerge as prime minister in the horse trading that follows. Because the way that Israeli coalitions work has often produced these very odd results. We had a situation going back in the day

9:31when Sipi Livni got more seats than Netanyahu, and Netanyahu became the Prime Minister. We got that thing that many listeners may remember, which is Naftali Bennett, who was the head of a very small party, with a very small number of seats suddenly ending up as prime minister because they were unable to put together a coalition in any other way. One cliche people will have heard again and again is that a lot of the question is going to be around what happens with the Arab vote. So on current polling, and Israeli polling is very, very difficult to be certain about because tiny margins make a huge difference. If you cross the 3.25% threshold that you've talked about, somebody like Ofa Winter, who's a hard right anti-Nehon Yahu figure suddenly might come in

10:17with four seats. If he fails to get 3.25%, he's not there at all. But let's imagine we go on the mainstream polling predictions. You probably end up with Netanyahu falling down in sort of 52 seats and maybe the opposition block at about 54 seats. You need 61 for a majority. Exactly, because 120 seats in the Knesset. And the Arab parties are probably likely collectively to pick up, depending on turnout, because again, Arabs traditionally haven't turned out as much as Jewish Israelis, turn up with maybe 15 seats. And it's possible that one of those parties in particular with six or seven seats could be the key. But many of the key figures in the anti-Nehonahu coalition have ruled out working with the Arabs. And animosity towards the Arabs

11:00is very, very, very strong, particularly after October the 7th. And I think probably the most striking thing, Shoshana is in Israel at the moment. I just spoke to her before we came on the call. She's there with the children, and she's visiting Bethlehem. She'll be visiting Ramallah on the West Bank, but she's just passed a huge poster, which is the key electoral slogan from Benjamin Netanyahu. And it says, Yamin or Palestine, which interestingly would be comprehensible to an Arab speaker as well as a Hebrew speaker. It means either vote for the right or you get Palestine. And the fact that the major slogan that Netanyahu is running on is that reveals to you that it is completely uncontroversial for

11:47most of the mainstream of Israeli politics that people are against an independent Palestine. Perhaps only a quarter of Jewish Israeli voters now support the idea of a Palestinian state. They're outnumbered by 33% who want full annexation and a similar number who just want some kind of extension of the current status quo with settlers. So this is an election where the gap between the way in which British or European governments perceive it, you know, recognition of Palestinian state, and actually the Israeli voter is so extreme that the Prime Minister is running on a slogan of either the right or you get Palestine. Well, first of all, you should thank Shoshana and the boys on our behalf that they've gone to do

12:29some research for this particular episode. That's very, very kind of them. I was assuming they're there for other reasons as well as just to do research. But that is fascinating that that is actually the message. And that is why I imagine that the opposition change bloc, the Eisenkot, Lapid, Naftali Bennett-Lieberman strategy has been virtually to move away from any talk, either of them campaigning for a two state solution, which would recognize a Palestinian state, or that they would do any sort of cooperation post-election with the Arab parties. Now, I wonder, I wonder if they did win, or if they were in the lead ahead of Netanyahu, and there was a possible deal to be done with one or both of the Arab parties, that actually

13:18they might do that. I don't know. Because otherwise, what's going to happen? There's just going to have to be another election. Or there's just going to be sort of ongoing chaos so I think it's interesting that they're both basically saying we're having nothing to do with the Arabs and what's more we are just going to be doing our own thing and if the numbers don't work well we'll have to revise it then and it is interesting how there's been no real traditional policy debate so far as I can work out that nobody's talking about a different approach to health a different approach to And it is interesting how there's been no real traditional policy debate, so far as I can work out. Nobody's talking about a different approach to health, a different approach to education, you know, a different approach on the economy. It's absolutely, this election is being defined by post-October 7th and by Netanyahu.

13:59It seems to me that that is all that this election is about. The one thing where I think the opposition maybe are trying, because they're obviously terrified of the people that they need to get to vote for them, thinking that they're either going to be soft on security or soft on the issue of a Palestinian state. But I think there is something in this election, and this is maybe where it's a good place to talk about Trump, who came out very, very strongly for Netanyahu yesterday. There is something I think about what is Israel's place and reputation in the world right now. You and I both watched this film, Naza, the Hebrew for collateral damage. It's a film that's been winning awards, but also been getting incredible

14:40opprobrium from Netanyahu, who's basically saying he wants to take away the Israeli citizenship of the people who made it. And we'll come on to talk about that film. But what I'm fascinated by is whether actually what Trump did yesterday, coming out with the most pro-BB, pro-Netanyahu endorsement imaginable, you almost got the feeling that apart from the capital letters, it was probably scripted by Netanyahu. But I'm just asking myself whether that really helps. Trump is more popular in Israel than he is in most parts of the world, where he's deeply unpopular now. But at the same time, I can't help thinking that this might actually help the opposition, who are basically trying to say that Netanyahu is damaging Israel's standing in the world,

15:25and ultimately we are going to need more allies than just Donald Trump. Yeah, it's worth also reminding ourselves and pinching ourselves about how weird, again, this is. I mean, no American president in history has ever come out and provided that kind of endorsement for an Israeli candidate in an election. I mean, it's just not normal to do that with any kind of democratic election. And it was even followed up by an interview in which Trump was asked, would he work with somebody who wasn't Netanyahu? And Trump says, maybe I will, maybe I won't. Why take the chance, right? Which again, is extraordinary. I mean, the idea that an American president would suggest that he wouldn't work for the democratically elected

16:08leader of Israel is really, really, you know, going so far beyond and a wake up call on the whole situation. I also think it's so striking now this, we talk about polarization, but you might remember a guy called Dan Sina, who was the was in CPA Baghdad, was the guy who did the communications in Iraq in 2003-4. He's somebody I know well. He's a Jewish American, and he has a very, very popular podcast called Call Me Back with the American Jewish community. And I was just listening to him this morning, and I was reminded of the chasm, basically, that has opened up between the way in which that conversation happens, Dan's conversation happens, the kind of conversation that we might be having or European podcasts might be having. So he's essentially, all the ads that lead it

16:58are encouraging donors to support emergency services in Israel. There's a lot of reference to October 7th, a lot of reference to October 7th, a lot of references to blood banks, three stories underground, a general sense that philanthropic American Jews are engaged in the existential fight to keep Israel alive. He turns against Abdullah al-Said, the senator candidate for Michigan, saying that he refused to recognize Israel's right to exist and was equivocal in his condemnation of an attack on a synagogue. And for American Jews in particular, they are still very much reeling. Is that true? Well, the claim is that he condemned it, but then later he said, trauma breeds trauma. And so Dan Siena is saying that Abdullah Said, having condemned it, then seemed

17:46to imply that Israel's actions in Gaza and elsewhere were partially responsible for this. And I think for American Jews, they feel such a strong sense of shock after October 7th, and then shock of what they experienced as anti-Semitic hatred after October 7th, when they were expecting sympathy. And this is even deeper, I think, in Israel, where the overwhelming support for operations in Gaza, the overwhelming support for operations in Iran, the overwhelming opposition to a Palestinian state reflects people who still absolutely see the world as the victims of October 7th, victims of rising anti-Semitism, and are feeling completely bewildered by the sense that the world's turned against them,

18:32and are hoping that if they can just get rid of Netanyahu, everything will be fine. Israeli public opinion doesn't seem to feel that it's anything structural to do with the relationship between Israel and Palestine there. There are many people who are hoping that Netanyahu is just a figure who you can get rid of in the way that maybe you get rid of Trump in the United States and everything will return to normal. That's a big hope. A couple of things. First of all, just to give people the highlights of this Trump post about Netanyahu, to the great people of Israel, Bibi Netanyahu has been a great warrior prime minister and an even greater partner for peace in combating the Islamic Republic of Iran. Normal men or women would

19:13have wilted under the pressure. Bibi did not wilt. He got stronger. He maintains the same strength today. Bibi Netanyahu will never let you down. Thank you for your attention to this matter. I mean, it's a full-throated, because a while back, Trump was saying, I might endorse somebody, I might not. This is full-throated. Now, we should remember, in Hungary, I think there is a distinct possibility that Trump's absolute endorsement of Viktor Orban may ultimately have damaged him. We'll see how this plays here. As I said earlier, the polling says that Trump is still pretty popular, less popular than he was, but he's still quite popular in Israel. Just briefly on Abdul Al-Sayed, Rory, if people want to see an extraordinary piece of

19:57live event, potentially tricky communication, we should put in the newsletter this exchange that Abdul Al-Sayed had with a guy called Tommy, who was a MAGA supporter who got into one of his meetings and tried to get him going over allegedly never having disavowed the Muslim Brotherhood. And it's several minutes long, but it's really worth watching for how Abdulaziz really manages to turn this whole thing to his advantage and essentially to expose the racism of the people who are calling him out essentially for being a Muslim. Rory, what did you think of the Naza film? We both watched it. Just to warn people, even our discussion is going to be quite graphic, but the film, if and when you do see it, and I strongly recommend that you do, you know, be prepared to be shocked and sickened. This is a film where

20:52they've been interviewing people who have served in the Israeli military in Gaza. A lot of it is about the technical stuff that they use, But essentially, these are interviews that are conducted at nighttime on a rooftop in Tel Aviv. They have disguised the faces and the voices of the people that they're interviewing, who essentially are whistleblowers. And the story that is told, I found, even with all that we think we know about what's in Gaza, I found absolutely chilling. Yeah. So these are Israeli documentary makers interviewing Israelis who are part of an elite intelligence unit, people who self-describe themselves as being from the more liberal upper middle class of Tel Aviv, who are working from a building, most of them in Tel Aviv,

21:41and who are gathering intelligence for strikes in Gaza. And it's very difficult to describe how disturbing it is. I found it very difficult to sleep after watching it. And I don't know whether it's ever going to be possible to persuade some of my Jewish friends who remain very supportive of the Gaza operations to watch that and what they would say if they did watch it, because essentially what it reveals is that Israel put together an artificial intelligence system, which they believe with about 85% accuracy identified people who were in Hamas. So they did it essentially through their phones, and it turned out every single phone in Gaza, it appeared the intelligence agencies could listen to what she

22:25was saying, watch you through the camera could listen to what she was saying, watch you through the camera, listen to your daughter's phone, listen to anything going on in the room. And on the basis of that, once you've got an 85% accuracy that you are in Hamas, and remember, big brackets, in Hamas covers a huge number of people. We're not talking here about a very small number of military leaders. We're talking about tens of thousands of people, including many, many people who are in Hamas but are working in civilian and political roles. The next thing is 85% accuracy, Alistair's probably part of Hamas. And if Alistair can be killed in a way that kills fewer than 20 non-Hammaz civilians, you basically don't have to go up the chain of command to get permission. It's just a kind of

23:12mathematical number. And on the basis of this, they would identify people predominantly coming home to their homes at night. So often what happens is, for example, the 11-year-old girl says, oh, daddy, welcome home. And they hear it on the phone. And then they take out that apartment, taking out the 11-year-old girl, the babies, the children. And they're doing this again and again and again and again. So, you know, to put it in context, these are horrible comparisons to make, but I suppose just under 40 children were killed on the October 7th attacks. And it takes, I think, about two days for the Israelis to kill that number, about five days for them to kill 10 times that number of children, about 400 children. Pretty soon they're up to 4,000 children.

23:59So it's going up and up and up. And the problem for me, I mean, every kind of problem, but the deepest problem for me was the sense that it had become a bureaucratic killing. That in the past, when we think about medieval atrocities, often we imagine soldiers getting drunk or out of control, storming a town. This is quite different. This is people sitting in an office block in Tel Aviv saying, it's an 85% chance that you're a member of Hamas. We can kill up to 20 people without really having to consult up the chain of command very much. We need consultation if we're going to kill 300 people to get one person, although we can ultimately get authorization for that. And then we'll just kill you at home with your babies and your children.

24:44The other thing, the 85%, and there's actually somebody who said it's okay to be 15% wrong. But this AI system, they talked about it finding the phones of people that behave like Hamas phones. There was that phrase that behave like Hamas phones. In other words, it could be that you've just got a few numbers in your contacts of people who are Hamas it could be that you're just expressing views that suggest that you might be a supporter of Hamas it's not that they've got a list of all the people who are senior or middle ranking officials in Hamas is that your phone conduct you behave like Hamas. And what I found really chilling, I think, is that this sense they had, there's one person who actually said, you know, we weren't paid to

25:35have views. We didn't, it wasn't about morals and principles. The sense that they all were giving, not all of them, but most of them were giving, was that their job was to wipe out Gaza. So you've talked about one part of this operation, another part of the operation. You and I talked about this at the time when they were warning people they had to move from one part of Gaza to another. And what was clearly then happening was that the parts from which they were moved, then part of the operation was then to go in and destroy the buildings so that they wouldn't want to go back. It was essentially to make this place completely unlivable. They were moving population from north to south and all over with no intention

26:17of allowing them to go back or ensuring that if they did go back, there was nothing there to find. To develop that, you produced this phrase domicile at the time about the deliberate wiping out of houses. And you were quite right, it was clear from the aerial photography at the time, but Israel was still absolutely denying it because it is a war crime to set about deliberately doing that. And it's a crime against humanity and beyond that, to simply say, well, we told people to leave, and if they don't leave, we're going to kill them. In fact, in this film, what happens is they say, we tell people to leave, and if there's fewer than 25% of the people still remaining in that area, then we just bomb it. And then they describe people coming back to get their

27:00clothing and being killed. And the interviewer says, do they have weapons? No, there are children killed, there are bodies lying on the ground, there are dogs eating the bodies, and they're just going neighborhood by neighborhood. And then when they haven't managed to blow it up from the air, they go in and they describe how you set it alight. You put the cushions in the center of the room, you get the olive oil, and you torch it. And when the interviewer says, but you're killing innocent people, you're killing people who are unarmed, you're just shooting people down, entering a zone where they don't even know where the limits are. Most of these people are shrugging their shoulders and say, yeah, well, I mean, what did you think was happening? And we can get into the legal arguments

27:37because there's a sort of horrible parody of the Geneva Conventions going on and saying we have an 85% thing and this is the number of civilian casualties we accept because there's a sort of legal argument out there somewhere in the world around the fact that you can have collateral damage if you identify a military target. But the more fundamental question is, why the hell are you killing so many people? I mean, what on earth is the justification for killing over 70,000 people and over 20,000 children. Why? House by house, individual by individual, almost is a distraction because it gets you into the question of exactly what was the basis of your AI model and how many others. But if you step back and look at the whole thing,

28:16there is no justification. And it just implies that we've lost all sense of human life. And the people defending it seem to be saying, well, that's war. And this isn't war, or this shouldn't be war. The interviewer says at one point to one of these guys, says, but that's genocide. And the guy says, yes. And then there's, I found the most moving in a way, but also shocking, was the intelligence guy who said that he is an Israeli, he's a proud Israeli, he grew up and he understood the history of Israel and where it came from. And he talked about having made a school trip to Poland and to have studied the Holocaust. And he hated the Nazis. How could they do this to people? And then it suddenly dawned on him that they were doing something similar. And you had a feeling with

29:12these people that were being interviewed, and obviously they must have known what this film was going to show and the light it was going to show them in. But you had a feeling that they were, when they were doing it, when they were involved and engaged in the operations that they were engaged in, they weren't allowing moral views to come into their orbit. They were just, as you say, technical. We don't have opinions, we're doing a job. And we've essentially been told we've got to erase this place. That's essentially the sense you get from what's going on. And afterwards, they start to question it. Also, there's the political background, which is really important. So you've got the security minister in the government and the finance minister, so Smotrich and Ben-Gavir.

29:55Ben-Gavir openly talking about plans for ethnic cleansing. Smotrich is on the record saying he wants to wipe out Gaza. We talked about Avigol Lieberman as a potential, even future prime minister and key to this anti-Netanyahu coalition, who produced this phrase, there are no innocents in Gaza. You have Netanyahu saying openly that he wasn't going to allow food and supplies in. I mean, so in a sense, they must be thinking, well, I mean, are you naive? I mean, this is what most of my, I'm afraid my Palestinian friends would say, which is, well, what the hell did you think was going on? I mean, you know, do you really need a documentary like this to reveal to you? It should have been completely obvious from the statements of the Israeli

30:40government and from what you could see. It sort of revealed the bureaucratic design, but I suppose we should have just begun with the fact 85% of the buildings were destroyed. Over 70,000 people were killed. 20,000 children were killed. So obviously, they were not being very careful about collateral damage. Obviously, they were trying to destroy all the buildings. So one of them was essentially saying, and I think I'm quoting this broadly accurately, he was saying, we need to destroy the place before we lose international legitimacy. In other words, the support, the global support, the widespread global support that's going to be in the wake of October the 7th, it might not last forever. So we've got to get on and do this. There's not much historical footage, but the footage that there is, the most interesting was an old interview with Netanyahu from, I mean, he looked very young.

31:36I don't think it gave the exact time, but he wrote a book called How the West Can Defeat Terrorism. There was an interview he did on the book and he was asked for his definition of terrorism. And he said, terrorism is the maiming and killing of innocent civilians for political goals. And when you saw it in the context of what these guys had all been saying, they had been instructed to do, and they were doing, it was chilling it was absolutely chilling and then the film ends with just white on black it just says israeli killing of palestine civilians is ongoing and then the credits come up in absolute silence now i what you and i watched it on a screener because we knew we wanted to talk about it. Fiona and Callum went to see it in the cinema last night, although it's not in that many cinemas. It should be in a lot of cinemas, this film. But they said that, you know, normally when the credits start on a film, people start to get up and watch. She said everybody just sat there in absolute silence, just barely able to take in what they'd seen. It makes the question of why anybody could suggest there are not war crimes and crimes

32:52against humanity in the centre of this. Why anybody could suggest there isn't legitimate grounds for the International Criminal Court to pursue a genocide investigation. I mean, that film alone, in legal grounds, gives you the grounds for pursuing that investigation. And, you know, we began at the beginning of this by talking about the Israeli election. And we talked about the gap between the way that Israelis are thinking about the world and the way that outsiders are thinking about the world. And the fact is that most Israelis are just not thinking about Gaza in that way, I'm afraid. I mean, look, there will be some Israeli listeners who will probably think, well, we don't live in Israel.

33:29That's true. And there are people who are out there protesting and there are people who are still saying we have to have a two-state solution. But their voices have been dulled. And I think the extent to which the political center of gravity has moved, I don't think anybody can get away from that. Just look at the election issues of peace, human rights, democracy, certainly not Palestinian statehood, but even, you know, the wellbeing of Palestinians. This is an election being run on corruption, Netanyahu, the ultra-Orthodox, some comments about schools. It is as though Israel has just taken on the assumption that this is okay, and that this was necessary. I'd say this place is maybe not okay, but that they've decided it's necessary, or they've decided this is what war has to be. And just that sense that you, I don't know,

34:31I mean, just that sense that trying to get your head into the scales of numbers that have been killed, it's horrible. And one of the things that comes across a lot in the film is that what really in the end changes the minds of the Israeli intelligence officers is when they can actually see and hear personally the baby crying, the 11-year-old saying daddy's come home, and then the father struggling to pull her out of the rubble. But in a sense, the tragedy is the numbers get so big that we can't really find a way of thinking about them. And so, fewer than 40 children were killed on October the 7th. And how does one compare that? Well, one doesn't try to, but scale does matter. And comparing 40 children killed to 400 children killed to 4,000 children

35:21killed to 20,000 children killed, which is what's now happened in Gaza. The way I would think about it is that it's like going back 40 years compared to going back 400 years compared to going back 20,000 years before the agricultural revolution that brought the Neolithic world into existence. I mean, it's almost impossible to contemplate 20,000 children's deaths in what we can now see in this film is an industrial bureaucratic form of killing. But if you go back to our very, very first discussion on the podcast, when you did that sort of remarkable explainer that sort of went viral, but I can remember a couple of the points made. The first was, there is the possibility that this, because of the response this will generate, this will set

36:07the Palestinian cause back massively. And the second point we made was that, you know, I would be utterly terrified right now if I was living in Gaza because of the horror that will be unleashed upon them. Now, both of those things have turned out, I think, to be accurate, but in a way, both have turned out way, way, way worse than even in the worst imagination I might have had about it I had at the time. And I'm with you. I fail to see how anybody can watch, not just watch it, but you're constantly telling yourself, these are Israeli military figures in part of one of the most elite units in the IDF, who are saying in very, very bold, factual terms, this is what we did and this is how we did it. And meanwhile, then you look at the reaction that there has been from Netanyahu and from others. The people who made this are being inundated with death threats. They can't

37:09go to their homes. Netanyahu's talked about them being traitors because they've revealed this truth. And that, of course, is another reason why Trump is so keen on Netanyahu, because they're both post-truth politicians, and also why he's so adamant that the International Criminal Court should be effectively demolished, cease to have any authority whatsoever. The film, by the way, and The Guardian played a role in this, and because they're struggling in some places to get much showing in cinemas they're still talking the possibility of getting it shown in some israeli cinemas but that's let's see whether that happens but the guardian are going to be putting out on their guardian website in um sometime next month i think so at the moment it's going through cinemas and

38:02where it is being shown it is i mean i think it was the most popular, the most watched film, I think, in Italy last week. So people clearly do want to see it, even though it's a relation to the West Bank. But this is Gaza and it is beyond anything you thought of. And just briefly, maybe before we go to a break, Roy, on the West Bank, the other thing that happened this week, an American journalist and then this delegation of European diplomats being physically attacked in quite a brutal way by these Israeli settlers in the West Bank wearing masks. Now, some have been arrested, but what has tended to happen with these things is that these terrible things happen. And of course, these are Belgians and Poles and a French mayor who was

38:57badly beaten up with an iron bar. But we hear about this because these are European diplomats. But this is the treatment that's being meted out to Palestinian olive farmers day after day after day after day. So unless we keep calling this out, I don't know where it goes. But the most depressing thing about the election, as you say, is actually that the, at least I can remember times in Israeli politics when elections were at least about left and right, or they were about, you know, one state, two states, or they were about some of the big, big, big issues that most countries of the world deal with. It strikes me that this election essentially is about how much do you fear? How much do you hate? How much do you want to stay

39:41with something which we know is terrible, but let's make it, let's keep it because it's our terrible. It's pretty horrific. That's the time for a break. And then when we come back from the break, we'll have a chance to answer some questions around your live appearance on Perseverance, which I think will be a more cheery subject to bring people back in on. We'll also touch a little bit on the amazing one Scaramucci appearance of Trump's new press secretary. We'll look a little bit at reform and some other things. It's a half a Scaramucci. Scaramucci has lost his place in history. He was the shortest lived ever. And he's had his records not just beaten, but smashed by Katie Zach zachariah see you after the break this episode

40:28is brought to you by lloyds housing is always a big talking point whether it's debating housing targets planning reform or just straightforward how do you get an affordable home and of course what a lot of it boils down to is giving first-time buyers the opportunity to get on the ladder something that in the era that i was growing up and becoming an adult, and you as well, Rory, it felt a lot easier than it does today. And something governments have been struggling to deal with. I mean, I remember almost from the moment the Cameron government came in in 2010, they were talking about how to make housing more affordable. And a lot of the debate has carried on into the Labour government. I think what's very interesting for people looking to get ahead is that Lloyds is currently

41:09offering mortgages with a deposit of just £5,000 for eligible first-time buyers. So that is a great example of lowering the barriers which stop people from owning a home. Search Lloyds 5k deposit to find out more. Subject to status, you could lose your home if you don't keep up your mortgage repayments. Conditions apply. A BetterHelp ad. Your brain has limited storage. So why is it still holding on to that embarrassing moment from years ago? That tough breakup? The conversation with your boss you keep rehearsing in the shower? If you could permanently delete one thing from your brain, what would it be? BetterHelp is an online therapy platform that gives you space to talk about what's taking up too much of yours. BetterHelp is now in network with more than 125

41:48health plans, with many co-pays as low as $15 for eligible members. And if you don't have eligible insurance or live outside the U.S., you can still get 10% off your first month. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com slash restpolitics. Cost and coverage may vary. Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? ZepBound Terzepatide may be able to help. ZepBound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity or some adults with overweight who also have weight-related medical problems to lose excess body weight and keep the weight off. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15 milligram injection.

42:33Zepbound contains terzepatide and should not be used with other terzepatide-containing products or any GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepbound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pens or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia,

43:12if you're nursing, pregnant, planned to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepfound with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-5979 or visit zepbounce.lily.com. Welcome back to the Restless Politics Question Time with me, Rory Stewart. And me, Alistair Campbell. And Amy wants to know, on what basis do you think Donald Trump chooses his press secretaries? And how sad do you think the mooch will be that Katie Zachariah has taken his new record? Well, he's putting a brave face on it. He's putting a brave face on it. He put out a statement saying that, you know, he felt her pain and what have you. But I suspect his pain is quite substantial right now

44:06because people are no longer going to measure Liz Truss as four Scaramouches. It's eight Zacharias that she lasted as prime minister. So the Mooch, I think, will be disappointed. As to the basis on which Trump chooses press secretaries, Trump is his own press secretary. I did feel very sorry for her, as I think many people do. No, Roy, Roy, Roy, hold on a minute. Hold on. Hold on. You told me last week that I was sometimes a bit soft. Okay. I had this rot violet image, but I've sometimes been soft. You cannot feel sorry for anyone who decides on the basis of no self-awareness or knowledge whatsoever that they are capable of representing the presidency of the most powerful country in the world. I'm sorry, you just cannot have sympathy for that.

44:54It was so amazing. We'll get you to analyze in a second, but if listeners haven't seen it, it is mesmerizing. She's obviously extremely unused to any form of public speaking. I mean, it was a pretty weird appointment, wasn't it? It was very weird. And he must have known it was weird because it turns out that Susie Wiles, the chief of staff, didn't know that this was happening. He just sort of decided. And it's the classic thing. I mean, we think this is a joke that he sits watching, he appoints Pete Hexer because he sees him a lot on Fox News and thinks he looks really good on TV. He saw this woman on television and thought, you know, she's always really nice about me. She basically had the job that she carved out for herself in the media

45:35was to go out and comment on his truth social posts. So his truth social posts create their own little media industry. But the other thing I found absolutely remarkable is she understood, I think, that you stand at the podium. There's a room full of journalists. You've got to take a few questions. She took three questions. She answered none of them terribly well. But they were from Breitbart, Fox News, and the Daily Mail. And then when she was criticized for only taking questions from right-wing outlets, do you know what her defence was? That the Daily Mail wasn't very right-wing. So she doesn't even know, she didn't even know anything about the outlets she was dealing with. To say that the Daily Mail is not very conservative is kind of weird.

46:19Nothing will make you crosser than me saying to be fair to the Daily Mail. But one of the things that struck me is the British journalists are much, much better at asking tough questions to these White House officials and the Americans. I mean, you know, the Daily Mail has asked some pretty tough questions to Pete Hexeth, as well as to her. I mean, it's interesting that these British journalists that we would normally consider quite kind of loyal right wing are actually, and it's extraordinary that they get in, but I guess they're English speaking, they're confident, and they're the people that are really making them uncomfortable. Well, there was one when West Streeting was visiting Pete Hexeth, I saw it was two British

46:52journalists, including James Matthews from Sky News, who were trying to get Hexeth's reaction to the fact that Trump had nixed the live stream execution that we talked about last week. And they were literally over the sound of sort of military welcomes, shouting at Hexer, trying to get some sort of response. Now, listen, we talked before, I find the general conduct of the White House press corps has been utterly pathetic. They should have done what they did at the Pentagon, which is basically say, if you're going to control us or just infiltrate as all these sort of you know so-called journalists who just right-wing influencers no we're not going to cover this stuff but look this was this this was born of donald trump deciding that he knows better than

47:40anybody about everything and he doesn't need to discuss anything with anybody. He's seen somebody on TV he likes the look of. Get her in, put her at the podium, she'll be great. She's out there, and then suddenly a guy called Jason Miller, who's one of Trump's aides, comes running in and taps her on the shoulder and says, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, J.D. Vance, the vice president, needs to talk to you about something very urgent. Would you mind leading the podium? And then she never comes back. What do you think's happening there, Alistair? I think what's happening there is that they're all watching it backstage. They're realizing this is an utter catastrophe. It cannot go any longer. But the lack of self-awareness.

48:23Look, Rory, if I got a phone call today from somebody saying, we think you're the guy to drive a spaceship to the moon, okay, I would know that I wouldn't have the capability to do that. How could she not know that she couldn't do the job? And what's more, you then have this thing about whether she's a lawyer or not. And honestly, do you know what i think she was i think she was ultimately absolutely shafted by fox news because they realized more than trump what a catastrophe this was so they persuaded trump to put to put her on sean hannity's show now sean hannity normally will sort of anything trump says or does he's the main It was, I couldn't watch it to the end. It was so excruciating.

49:08And this thing about she wasn't an attorney, she wasn't a lawyer, she didn't pass the bar exams, but then she went to China. So I was thinking, is she a barrister in China? My best analogy is if somebody rung me up and asked me whether I'd like to coach Manchester City. Tempting, flattering, you know, what would your friends say to you? Well, Rory, that's a big job, you know, great that someone asked you to do it, but maybe perhaps it's helpful for me to say no. Yeah, but do you know what, I think there are parts of it you could do, there are parts of that job you could do. Okay, Jack, why do reform still get traction after everything that's come out about them? Well, that is a question which the Liberal Democrats ask an awful lot, because the Liberal Democrats have a lot of MPs, they have a lot of things to say, but they get next to no media coverage.

49:54I think they get traction because we have a pretty right-wing media, and because Farage and some of the other leading characters, for all their many, many, many faults, they are interesting. So they get traction. But I think what's happening now, I'm glad to say, is that the traction that they've had over many years is now starting to work against them. Because people have felt we have to cover reform, they now feel they're finally having to recover reform for all the things that are going wrong. we talked a few weeks ago about the verbatim documentary which was all about the kind of money and i think that corruption stuff has really really damaged them and i actually did stay up late last night having watched the uh the nasa film i also watched the reform documentary on itv

50:40and it was it kind of made you sick, actually, because it was, it was relentless. You'll have seen the highlights that have been on the news of some of the things that these reform councillors and other politicians have said. But when you have it, I think it was like almost the length of a football match. It was from 10.20 till midnight. It was just relentless. It was relentless. Racism, misogyny, sexism, desperately trying not to take it seriously, desperately trying to sort of just push it to one side rather than actively deal with it. So on the one hand, Farage relentlessly, endlessly standing up saying, we'll root it out, we'll do this, that, the other. And I saw Robert Peston, our colleague from Rest His Money, I saw him on ITV News talking about it,

51:23and he said that, you know, he was making the direct comparison with the way that eventually the Labour Party took on the anti-Semitism issue and saying that there is no such serious parallel approach in relation to the reform leadership in this. Now, there will be people who will have watched this and, of course, will have cheered them on. But I think Nigel Farage knows that that is a very, very limiting group of people. And I think this would have damaged them further. This on top of the corruption stuff, I think was really, really damaging to them. The thing that struck me picking up on this while also thinking about the Israeli elections is the sense of parallel universes and echo chambers. And my fear that this kind of documentary doesn't have much impact on

52:14people who are thinking of voting for reform any more than people supporting Israeli operations in Gaza are going to be much influenced by the documentary on Nasser because we've just got into such a polarized world in which we see only what we want to see. And I think probably one of the reasons why these reform candidates so comfortably say they're going to set up concentration camps for people illegally crossing the channel or why they're so open in saying Muslims are not British is because they exist in a social media world and in a social context in which that's what everyone's saying. It doesn't seem strange to them. They're saying it all the time, and everybody agrees with them all the time. And then eventually,

52:53they say something on social media, and it gets picked up by Channel 4 or whatever, and they're suddenly in trouble. And I guess the same would be true if you're trying to understand MAGA voters. The same is true if you're looking at what's happening with Zach Polanski and the Greens and anti-Semitism, that we've just created this world in which we just don't recognize the same common terms. And we don't have a shared way of thinking about basic values. Look, you could be right and you and and that is definitely the lesson of trump but i think it is interesting that farage and reform do strike me as being on the way down i saw somebody posted a tweet yesterday which i really liked it said labor

53:36have decided to stop out reforming reform and hey guess what labor have gone up in the polls the tories have decided to stop out-reforming reform. And hey, guess what? The Tories are going up in the polls. Maybe we shouldn't allow our politics to be guided by the worst people in the room. I think that's what's happened. And I actually think that the people who will politically will benefit most from the stuff that we saw last night, actually, is probably the Conservatives. I think there will still be quite a lot of people who are minded to vote reform, who would never vote Labour, minded to vote reform, who actually will have watched that thing last night or be aware of it and thought that is really not for me.

54:14I didn't realise it was as bad as this. Because the point you see watching the whole thing for over an hour, it's just relentless. It's not like, I mean, okay, they spent a year on working undercover, but it struck you that everywhere they went, they were hearing this stuff. It wasn not like, I mean, okay, they spent a year working undercover, but it struck you that everywhere they went they were hearing this stuff. It wasn't like just sort of, you know, the odd bad apple, as Nigel Farage likes to put it. Now, here you are, Rory. Andrew, what are your favorite children's books? Now, we actually wrote about some of these in the newsletter last week, and I think people were struck by, I don't know how to put this,

54:43but a sort of difference in your children's books and my children's books. Well, I chose the Wizard of Earthsea trilogy by Ursula Le Guin and the Bartimaeus trilogy, which is a hilarious trilogy about Wicked Genie, the kind of guy that comes out of a bottle in a sort of steampunk version of Victorian England. And I think it's just entrancing and really beautifully written. I might also do a shout out to Catherine Rundell, who I think is, again, the smartest, most interesting children's writer at the moment, but that's becoming a bit of a cliche. Over to you, Alastair. And just to sort of play into the stereotype of Rory as this great public intellectual and me as this kind of tabloid hack, I chose the Charles Buchan Football Annual,

55:27the Brunes and Ur-Wally, which are cartoon books from the Sunday Post. I've got to say, I think the other thing, which books do you most like reading to your own children? I used to love anything by Shirley Hughes. And Here Comes Mr. Silly Pants. I don't know if you've ever And here comes Mr. Silly Pants. I don't know if you've ever heard, here comes Mr. Silly Pants. And also Fireman Sam. I think Fireman Sam was a wonderful invention. It may be that we're thinking about children at different ages, because you're tempting me down to the Gruffalo, which I no longer read to my children, or Smelly Bear, which is one of my real favorites. People love our book recommendations. had so we had so many people with allison anything by enid blighton

56:10anna michael endy the never-ending story jodie christopher robin great poems for kids tony anything by arthur ransom but swallows and amazons especially so yeah keep them coming people keep them coming tony also added the Willard Price Adventure Series, which is Hal and Roger and its tiger adventure, Amazon adventure, elephant adventure, these two young Americans. I think what we say is it was written in a different time. Some of their attitudes towards some of their African companions are a little questionable. And they are engaged in trying to capture animals live for a Brooklyn zoo. But it is true that for boys' adventure stories, it is extraordinary. These are these kind of noble, inventive 14, 16-year-olds meeting the most spectacular animals on Earth and the most

56:59incredible landscapes and coming out on top against evil adults again and again. Alistair, we had a great event last night, which was a live event where members were able to engage with you live and ask you questions about your concept of perseverance, your new book, Perseverance, and what this means for the world. And here's a question from a man whose online name is Explore Yorkshire. Do you think politics is currently helping us to be, spoiler alert, Alistair's new word, percivilient as a nation? No, first of all, breaking news. Somebody sent me this morning, they had a conversation with ChatGPT, your friend's AI, about whether there was a word percivilians, and it came back, yes, it was invented by Alastair Campbell.

57:46So AI is working faster than the Oxford English Dictionary. Do I think politics is currently helping us to be perseverant as a nation? No, is the short answer. And I'll come on to say why. First of all, I want to thank everybody who joined us last night and thank Izzy from the newsletter who did the chairing of the whole thing. We had some fantastic questions, really, really good questions. But why do I think politics is not helping us to be percivilian as a nation? I talked about this last night in the context of Finland, which I say in the book is the most percivilian nation in the world. Population of 5 million, the same as Scotland, they've got 900,000 military reservists. I don't think we are yet. I think

58:26Andy Burnham is getting there, but I don't think in relation to defence, in relation to security, in relation to the threat from Russia and others, I don't think we are really confronting the country with the reality of the environment that we're in. I think we're still sort of muddling along thinking that everything is going to be fine. And I think all the environment that we're in. I think we're still sort of muddling along thinking that everything is going to be fine. And I think all the big things we talk about, whether it's the unreliability of Trump, whether it's Iran and what they try to do, whether it's the Russians and getting increasingly aggressive in all this hybrid stuff. So I think politics is still too

58:58much about making people feel good about stuff, as opposed to about trying to persuade the public to come with you in trying to persuade the public to come with you in trying to address the challenges we face that's my view what do you think well yeah okay i like it i like it i mean i i just want to i mean a i second that um i mean a lot of i suppose what we do is talk about how easy that is to say and how difficult it is to do in practice and how stuck things feel and how often people take political risk and it doesn't work. And then suddenly Andy Burnham will take political risk on something like a close relationship with the European Union will seem to sort of work. So this sort of very strange interplay

59:37of public opinion, leadership, bureaucracy and making that out of the possible, which makes, I think, this kind of the most fascinating subject in the world. But I just want to finally, as we close, pay tribute to your series. So, do sign up at thewrestlerspolitics.com. It's a mini-series, and there are incredible interviews. My favorite is with David Blunkett, but there are interviews also with Kim Ledbetter, Alice's friend Lindsay, Clark Carlyle, and they begin on Friday for members only. But maybe as a taster, if you haven't had a chance to, I've done an interview with you, Alistair, which begins to explore the concept of personal development, but also some very, very meaningful, very serious, very heartfelt comments that you're making about

1:00:22your own life and your own personal development, which I think listeners who've got in touch have found very, very helpful. So thank you for doing that. Well, I've got to say, Rory, you mentioned Shoshana being in Israel, Fiona, who is downstairs. She said that she thought your interview with me about Iraq led me to be more open and honest about Iraq and my feelings about Iraq than she'd ever heard me before. And she thought that your interview last week about Perseverance had led me to be more open and frank about my mental health than she'd heard me talk about before. So maybe, given I'm 20 years older than you, Rory, maybe when I do depart the mortal coil and you no longer have me to sort of you know do this podcast you could branch out as as your own on your own as a kind

1:01:12as a as a sort of deep dive interviewer on what goes on inside troubled minds because you seem to according to Fiona who knows me better than anybody you um you hit a few marks so there we are anyway I really enjoyed the series. I loved your interview. I thought it was fascinating just to be sitting there talking about stuff that we don't normally talk about. And the first episode of the mini-series on Friday for Members is with Kim Ledbeater and Lindsay Nicholson about grief. And to listen to all of them, just become a member at therestispolitics.com forward slash club. Thank you, Alistair, very, very much. Look forward to seeing you again very soon. See you soon. Take care. Hi there, it's Alistair here.

1:01:57And as you will know, we're entering a very exciting, a very significant few weeks for politics at home and abroad. Hugely important elections in the United States, in Israel, Brazil and elsewhere, plus a huge test for Andy Burnham's government, perhaps the biggest so far when John Healy sets out the budget on October 28. Because of that, we're making a few changes to our release schedule on the rest is politics over the next couple of weeks. Next week, the episodes are going to come to you a day later than usual. On Wednesday afternoon, we'll bring you our instant reaction to the Chancellor's first budget, along with the results of the Israeli and Brazilian elections and our analysis of both.

1:02:33And I'm on my way to the United States for the midterms. And on Friday, we're going to be doing a special question time recorded while I'm in the States. I'll be answering your questions, bringing you a sense of what I'm seeing on the ground in rural Ohio and moving down into West Virginia. And perhaps by then I'll be ready to answer, why did I get my election prediction wrong in 2024? Rory may be doing such soul searching while jet setting around a country that I'm avoiding for a few years, but fear not. Members will still get their exclusive weekly episode. In this case, my interview with David Blunkett, part of the new series on Percivilliance. That will come to you on Saturday, October the 31st. And then the following week,

1:03:16things are a little different again. That's so we can bring you our analysis of the US midterm results on Wednesday, November the 4th. But first, we'll bring you the weekly edition of Question Time on Tuesday, November the 3rd. So to recap, because if you're confused, so am I, but we'll get there and make it clear. Next week, Wednesday, Friday, Saturday, and the following week, Tuesday, then Wednesday. And assuming nothing catastrophic happens in the world, normal service resumes after that. We're really, really looking forward to it. See you then. used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections,

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