The Biggest Mistake Yet - Celeb Traitors Reaction (Episode 9)

0:00Hello and welcome to this Traitor's Reaction episode of The Rest is Entertainment. I'm Marina Hyde. And I'm Richard Osman. And you give your introduction with a sigh there, Marina. I think this one is going to be a form of therapy for us all. I think we all have some stuff we're going to have to get off our chests here. Yeah. Yeah. Talk it through. Every episode is different. Every series is different. And this one, I mean, it certainly is. I have thoughts. I bet you do. Oh, I've got 15 pieces of luggage to unpack here. Yeah. Shall we begin, Richard, with Kenny changing his vote to Joanne? Listen, we all know where we're heading. Oh, yeah. We all know, yeah, the destination. Let's begin at the beginning.

1:03Yes. We confidently predicted in the last one, we said, well, there's absolutely nothing to be gained in Kenny changing his vote to Joanne. So he'll definitely be voting for Sharon. First thing he does, votes for Joanne. And this, Richard, sets in chain a series of events that makes things considerably harder for the traitors yeah in in a world in which by the way this it should have been the easiest tray to win in in the history of the franchise yeah i mean we don't have to unpack this for our brilliant listeners however and and viewers had he banished sharon who was good yeah they would then have been able to murder the leading liability, Michael. Yeah. And spared themselves a big part of a very, very damaging next day,

1:52which I can only call Michael Sheen's house of pain. It was. It's an interesting decision. Should we go back to that decision then? Michael Sheen's house of blames. I'm going to call it. Yeah, there was a lot of blames. The Rest Is Entertainment is presented by Octopus Energy, whose generation business backs, builds and manages renewable energy projects. On screen though, the practicalities of sourcing power are slightly more negotiable. Certainly in scripts. I mean, my favourite energy source story, Back to the Future. Of course, they're supposed to have plutonium they don't have plutonium so they were like back in when they go back when they go back yeah so they need to get 1.21 gigawatts which they get from the lightning strike which they know

2:35is going to happen at 1004 very very clever monsters inc now you know where the power source is monsters inc everything in monstropolis is powered by children's screams, which is why they need to sort of harvest them. Yeah, may not work in real life. On screen, keeping the lights on does seem to require an unnecessary amount of drama. Now, Octopus Energy Generation has rather less need for a screenwriter. It backs, builds and manages renewable energy projects with 5.7 gigawatts of capacity across its portfolio, enough to power all the homes and businesses of Birmingham, Leeds and Manchester combined. A slightly more conventional approach to generating power. Hi this is Gary Lineker from Goalhangers, the rest is football. This episode is brought to you by Wise. It's only when you start moving money between currencies that you really think about

3:22the exchange rate, the fee, and what might be hidden away in the small print. Whether you're living abroad, paying someone overseas, or just trying to manage your money across borders, you want a fair exchange rate, an easy transfer, and no surprises along the way. WISE keeps things simple. WISE is a smart way to move the currencies you need around the globe. It works in more than 160 countries and with over 40 currencies. Most transfers arrive instantly. Wise uses the mid-market exchange rate, like the one you see on Google, with no markups or hidden fees. So when money needs to move, you can see the rate, know the fee and get on with it. Join millions saving billions on hidden fees by downloading

4:05the Wise app today. Be smart, get wise, T's and C's apply. Feminine perfume Donna Born in Roma features juicy blackcurrant, central jasmine, soft cashmere and warm vanilla. Masculine leaning but unisex Womo has notes of fresh violet leaf, aromatic sage, green vetiver and mineral salt. Shop holiday gifts at Macy's.com. Yes, well, the interesting thing about the decision, the Joanne decision, changing his mind, is nobody questioned him about it at all. And if they did, it wasn't in the edit. I wonder whether part of it was, she was, as we said, incredibly good as an advocate for herself. Yeah. And I wonder whether there was a part of him that was just thinking, if I don't vote for her after that, it's going to look even worse, or something.

5:04I don't even know what he was... No one else changed the vote. Oh, no, someone else changed the vote. But you don't change, especially with a double dagger. I mean, sorry, but one thing I've learned in life with a double dagger, you don't change your vote. I mean, it's common sense, isn't it? Yeah. But he did. Yeah, he did. And Joanne left us. I have to say, this was a great booking for the show. Yes, amazing. She would have done really well out of this. Really enjoyed the bit where she said she was premenstrual on the little circle. She remains, you know, an agent of delight. Yeah, she left as she played. Yeah. Iconically. Poor Sharon, though. She was like, I feel everyone's angry with me.

5:37That was sort of hard to watch. Yeah. Well, let's get to... I've seen harder things to watch as it turned out. It turned out it was pretty much the easiest thing to watch in the whole things to watch as it turned out it turned out it was pretty much the easiest thing to watch in the whole episode now we look back at it yeah so they go off into the turret they have a murder to commit okay so there's only one job there what's the job? murder Michael Sheen just kill Michael I'm so sorry it's not complicated I assume you'll be murdering Michael Sheen three words just kill Michael but it's a sub-optimal situation because they still have Sharon in play and they know she's good and that she's kind of onto it.

6:10Because obviously, if they'd got rid of her, then this would have been the easiest thing in the world, as I've just said. Yeah, but they didn't. Once they had failed to get rid of Sharon that way, even so given a choice between her and Michael, they should have gone for Michael because he has far more clout than her. And that's the key thing. She was never able to form sufficient alliances or friendships. Her good theory, she was a good player. Not even good. Not even great. Really great. And correct. Yeah. But if you don't have the clout, you don't have anything. It's worth it if you're running any organization or even a country, say, to occasionally remember that somebody quietly sitting at the end of the table might have the solution for your business.

6:49And it's always worth keeping your ears open for that. Sharon is the only person here to have played a hard. I would say Kenny as well. Sharon is the only faithful to have played a decent game. Sharon worked out that perfume bottle. She worked out exactly what happened. She worked out the thing that Michael and James were able to use the next day. And she was not there to enjoy the spoils of it. But she's the one. Nobody else worked it out. Nobody else had that bit of information. It was all Sharon all the time. I felt so. They murdered her. I felt, I could be wrong. I felt they did it because they felt she was uncomfortable in the game. I thought it was a mercy murder. I thought it was from kindness.

7:28I think it was not gameplay at all. I think they felt, I don't think she wants to be here, which rather begs the question, why didn't Kenny just not change his vote? But I think between the three of them and the turret, I wonder if that was the discussion that was had, because otherwise it doesn't make a huge amount of sense. Yeah, well, I mean, it definitely doesn't make a huge amount of sense um a line was uttered in that turret by james acaster life of a traitor it's not for everyone anyway that's his next tour hang on to that one um so anyway we get to breakfast yeah now james blunt makes the point that you know you always hope that someone will say at this point of the game, let's just banish the most innocent.

8:06Because we keep banishing the noisiest. Always do the opposite. Now, Romesh can see this, that it's good. But he's been so much more circumspect than James Blunt throughout this game. Yeah. For various reasons. Also very funny. Yeah. Can I just say, since it's a safe space, I've got a crush on Romesh. Okay, that's nice. I can't fight it any longer. It's the tone. It's just the tone. It'll pass. But since everyone can just say whatever they like, apparently. Apparently. I'm going to say that. We're allowed to give our inner monologue at all times now. Apparently, that's it. So I'm just saying that. Also with Romesh, always says the funniest thing you could say in any given situation. Just brilliant.

8:49Yeah, always makes any conversation better than it just was. Yeah. Yeah. And I like it. I'm here for it. Yeah, listen, we absolutely, we understand that. You've issued a come and get me plea to Romesh. I have. Okay, so James Blunt again says, oh oh Kenny's got so little heat you know and Kenny is sort of puts it back against him yeah um James Blunt and Michael are in a sort of similar space at this point yes I don't know what you would call that space no um no I don't either a Sharon vacuum yeah maybe yeah maybe Romesh says, my problem is that yesterday I shot for the king and I missed. He does rightly observe that you have to be suspicious of Meyer if you're suspicious of James Acaster. As we said, the narrow path to victory ran through Romesh.

9:39Yeah. He has done as best as he can in quite random circumstances during this episode. But the assumption there, of course, is that Joanne was still there and they would kill Michael. We'll come to his remaining options. But then Michael obviously begins his day of just going all in. Yeah. Just, you know, he says to Maya, tell me why it's not you. She didn't love it. No, she didn't. She has not loved. She did not love having any heat on her yeah and then he says you and kenny yes yeah and later on he says james you and kenny uh yeah michael says he's he was entering his vengeful daddy era yeah yeah it was definitely an era there was a whole era in that day yeah i would call it uh sorry what did sharon say yesterday era yeah but it's uh you know

10:26it has echoes but okay we'll deal with the day as it was you have three traitors there yes out of eight yes okay you got three traitors out of eight it is very very very very easy for the traitors to win it is very easy for them to get rid of michael people were already talking about michael romish said oh i swung for the king and i missed yeah right james meyer and kenny can all vote for the same person yes because they're traitors and someone else will join them and they're allowed to team up they get romish to join them they just turn the round table into that discussion and it's very very very done. For whatever reason during the day, that didn't happen, I suspect, because of James, I suspect,

11:09because at no point have they been able to really think tactically and work tactically and work as a team, which has made it a different series. That's for sure. It's made it sort of a slightly less technically gameplay-ish series. Yeah, I don't think you could call this a masterclass in gameplay. It's been a lot of fun to watch. Yeah, I don't think you could call this a masterclass in gameplay. It's been a lot of fun to watch. Yeah, yeah. But in a different way to, you know, oh, I wonder what are the wheels within wheels here? What are the bluffs and double bluffs and treble bluffs? There's barely been a bluff, let alone anything else. So they have the day. We have a mission. In any normal Traitors, this is the day where the three Traitors absolutely just put the foot to the metal,

11:49get rid of Michael, then they've got a murder as well, and the game is theirs. I mean, it could not be easier to win this show as the Traitors. Anyway, we have a mission. Severed heads and screams. They've got three the night there. Fun, yeah. I very much enjoyed Romesh being unable to deal with how ridiculous it was. I enjoyed James Blunt's Scottish ammo. Yes, for no reason. I haven't heard that one. And him kissing Ross. So that all passed off. Yeah. Can I say one interesting observation about the mission? Yes. The previous mission was for £13,000. This one was for £5,000. Now, the thing you do in game shows always is you just increase the prize money, ratchet up the tension. I think this was like a little release of pressure for everyone from the producers.

12:38I think one of the key things in this series is there's lots we're not seeing. We know from what people have said after the show that there are tensions and there were issues and there were various problems with people. And a million percent, we don't want to see that. Of course, because it's supposed to be fun and it's celebrities. But I think it means somewhere... What do you think I pay to watch the outtakes of it? I know, but they won't be exactly. But you want people to come into it next year, so you can't show it. I agree. It means that we've slightly missed something. In camera, I would watch it in five years. Yeah, yeah, yeah won't be exactly. But, you know, you want people to come into it next year, so you can't show it. I agree. It means that we've slightly missed something.

13:08In camera, I would watch it in private. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. But that mission was a really lovely, let's all just, shall we all just relax and be friends with each other? It does mean that the viewers, to some degree, don't understand or feel that there's something that they didn't quite get. Yeah, I think there's an extra thing added to that, which is there have been no tactics as well. Yes. So between those two things, we're like, hold on, what's the story? Where's this? Dwight, towards the end, Claudia says, like legally you have to on any television show, you've been on quite a journey. And the thing is they haven't really. It hasn't been like a big HBO drama. It's been a sketch HBO drama it's been a

13:45sketch show it's been a series of just discrete very funny events happening one after the other none of which have bear any relation to the previous one because it lacks a strategic narrative spine it has it hasn't had that narrative spine and by the way it doesn't need it because it's traitors and that's the whole point of traitors is it is it becomes what the players make it it plays out differently every time and that's what's cool about it but just a couple of times in this episode, which I enjoyed very much, and I'm enjoying the series very much, I was thinking, oh my God, I can't wait for the civilian one, where they all actually want to win. So we go back to the castle, and then Romesh and Bash.

14:18Now this, I feel, is his option. Yeah. Michael's the king. Jester is James Blunt. Yeah. And the queen is Maya, who they brilliantly describe as gliding. Yes, an Olympic-level glider. Yeah. And by the way, if you're traitors and you're anywhere close to that conversation, you think, well, this is perfect. If I'm Maya, I'm very happy to be the queen because if you're getting rid of the king first Michael and then the jester James Blunt we now have the numbers to win you can know for a fact I'm a traitor it's not going to help you because there's only going to be five of us left and three of us are traitors yeah we don't know if they're having the conversation because sometimes this is too much

14:59of the workings of the game and they might just take it out because it's less satisfying to watch but I think that they should at least have considered the possibility, not the possibility, the probability that there is a woman. And as there are only two women left, it might be worth looking at one or both of those two. I don't know. I would say if I was in there with two traitors in the first place, could the producers have made two men traitors? Yes, definitely. Richard E. Grant plus somebody. You could do that in this day and age. Hannah then became a traitor went away so everything else is not producer's choice everything else is recruitment so I think it's very very easy for them not to

15:33on the balance of probabilities yes there would probably be a woman I think there's definitely a chance that there wouldn't be a woman There's a chance but they have so little else to go on that I would have worked I would at least try and develop that theory Well it turns out they do have a lot to go on it's just everything that sharon said yeah that coupled with the whole big dog thing they should really have alighted on maya but the axis of suspicion continues to sort of swing around periodically towards michael yeah which a it should do and b mean, for the traitors, I mean, okay. I mean, genuinely, easy, easy, easy win here. All it takes is for people who really want to play this game and are playing it like civilians.

16:14On a day like today, Michael would have been banished. Well, he would have been murdered the night before. But if he hadn't been, for whatever reason, because they felt that, you know, they wanted to, they wanted to give Sharon her send-off, they'll just lose Sharon. If for whatever reason, if Michael's still there, you lose Michael. Michael, who has spent all day bringing up a lot of different people. But the last thing we see before they get to the roundtable, really, is Michael saying, OK, Jamesames acaster kenny and maya again they should not have permitted this day to have occurred they should not have allowed this he should not be there because michael carries a lot of weight and as soon as sooner or later he

16:56is going to be right because because there's so few people left yes it is impossible to continue being wrong at any length so at point, smart people are going to work out at least one of your identities. You know, they just are even James Blunt was working it out. Oh, yeah. That was, you know, that's, that's what the numbers are telling us. So the heat was on them. However, absolutely heat that could have and should have been deflected by traitors who were really in it to win it. I have a theory on that later as well. But should we talk about it after this break? Yes, please. We'll talk after the break. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Lloyd's. Now, let's talk about movie con artists.

17:48Who are your absolute favourites? Movies, TV and book, my answer is the same. And it's Tom Ripley. I was going to say him. It's one of the greatest characters of all time. So from the Talented Mr Ripley books by Patricia Highsmith, there's five of them. So if you like Talented Mr Ripley, you are in luck. He's like one of the worst men in the world, but you absolutely, you root for him at all times. Now, of course, deception makes for excellent entertainment on screen. In real life, when it's your bank account being targeted, the charm somewhat disappears. Yep. Lloyds have invested £100 million in Dark Horse anti-fraud technology, which combines intelligent monitoring and real-time alerts to keep you safe from fraud. Click on their app or visit lloydsbank.com to find

18:33out more about how Lloyds protects you from fraud. AI-powered scam checks, voice biometrics, and real-time alerts are just some of the ways Lloyds are protecting you, based on Lloyds Banking Group data 2023 to 2025. Shaq here. What's it like to buy a car from Carvana 100% online and get it delivered to your door? Let me tell you. Your car is here, Mr. Shaq. Thank you, Mr. Carvana guy. Can't wait to take it for a spin. Only the best for you, Mr. Shaq. Hey, have you always been so big, tall, and handsome? Not always. I was 6'10 once. Seven days to love it or return it, Mr. Shaq. Not that I would. You never do. No, I never do. So buy your car today on Carvana. Delivery fees may apply. See our seven-day return policy at Carvana.com.

19:26Flowing ad budget on metrics that look great till the CFO sees them, that's bull spend. And marketers are calling it out in Dashboard Confessions. I remember telling my boss, it'll be good for the brand when leads were slow. Yeah, it wasn't. Cut the bull spend. LinkedIn lets you target by company, job title, and more. Advertise on LinkedIn. Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a $250 credit. Go to linkedin.com slash campaign. Terms and conditions apply. Welcome back, everybody. Welcome back, everyone. Right. The round table. Here we go. It begins with Kenny saying we need to do everybody yeah um if they do do that we don't see it they very quickly forgot to do everyone michael sheen very smart move i think says do me first yeah which by the way if i was somebody else i'd go

20:17no no no let's start with you don't tell us who to do first it was a very smart move from michael because no one went up against him as well but but gets his bits out of the way first, lets him hear what the information is out there, who's up against him, just contextualises everything that he wants to do in that round table. We do know that, and that's so worth remembering always, is that there is a sort of competitive advantage to not being the last one talked about. They slightly, throughout the series yeah and all the different series if you were the last one that everyone suddenly became obsessed with they people can become quite you know persuaded by that at the last minute yes because

20:55by then they're like i just i just want to get out of this room who was who did you just say okay yeah yeah okay um he he did say um i don't know why I'm still here. Great to see the first of those in the wild in this series. And then I really enjoyed the thing between Romesh and James Blunt, where Romesh was saying, you know, I know we're different people. And I was thinking, because you've gone for people and you've been people. And I was thinking, because you've gone for people and you've been wrong. And I've done that myself, Ramesh was saying, but then you've just like regrouped immediately. I think it's a class thing. I think it's what passes for James Brown's culture. Yeah, I think that that is a cultural thing. Yes, I think it is. Yeah,

21:42of course I was wrong. But who's to say i'll be wrong this time give it another go yeah yeah oh he sort of comes into his own though in fairness to james now um you know maybe it's an even a stock clock tells the right time twice a day thing but he has because he's been wrong so so much before but he starts saying it's james acaster it's maya the quiet traitors will win, that's something you haven't banked on. And then Michael gets in on Maya and James Acaster. Maya, she lost a little of her cool with the way she was defensive about the library. Yeah, yeah. It's difficult not to. Kenny did it very well. Yeah. Kenny every time said, yeah, yeah, it's me and Maya and James. Yeah. Yeah. Everyone else died, I guess, apart from us yeah yeah but maya is right and it but it's an

22:30absurdity to say it must have happened at the end of the evening because it could have happened on the task it could have happened anywhere across that whole day uh but sharon got it right she was absolutely right about what happened and that's the theory that seemed to be co-opted by the end of the episode. But either way, that's the theory that is being heavily followed here. Well, sometimes if a guy says an idea, you're like, oh, that's a good idea, especially if a woman has said it before. See, I think my- I've been in a lot of meetings like that. You said the idea and no one reacts and then it's repeated. I have a theory, which is sometimes if a guy says an idea, that even if a woman has said it before, people are like,

23:09oh, the guy just said it. And everyone's like, oh my God, that's how I see it sometimes. Good one. Yeah. But yes, there was a case of that going on here, for sure. Can you tell me what happens next, Richard? Because in many ways I'm still processing it. Yes, what happens here is James Acaster, throughout this whole process, has been looking for an exit door. Okay? Just looking for an exit door where he doesn't blow up the whole show, especially, where he doesn't just quit on the whole thing, but he's been waiting at all moments for just that you know like at a party where there's suddenly a gap between you and the door you think I could actually just go now and no one's going to see me no one's going to see me

23:54guys I could just leave this isn't a French exit though I will say oh no it's I've seen some exits and this is not French you cannot do a French exit on this show because people would notice so James suddenly sees this thing because by the way this question he wasn't super dogged it was we're talking about everyone okay we did michael we've done this we're going to talk about the library thing uh and then whether it was michael or james and just saying well yeah so who was the last out there who was it was the last one in there and they go well so i guess that so if r Ross was in there and it was this thing, Sharon's theory, then you were the last person in. So James, like it could have been you, right?

24:31We've had that sort of allegation thrown around round tables all the way through this series, through every single series there's ever been. You always, you just say, so perhaps it could have been you. James absolutely goes, ah, I have my exit i just go i cannot believe you worked it out he hasn't worked it out he's just saying he's just saying he just said sounds feasible he's saying theoretically this is the thing that might have happened and before we move on to bash why don't we just say so james you know it it might have been you and so you listen to james go i get it yeah absolutely might have been me i i just you listen to James go, I get it, yeah, absolutely. It might have been me. I just say what Maya says,

25:09which could have happened anywhere at any point. And by the way, Michael, today you are really going in strong. I mean, very, very strong. Almost as if there are three traitors left and if you get one more faithful out, that's it, you've won the game. It feels to me like you're almost sprinting for the line. You are throwing this at everybody. And by the way, you're throwing it at all the most obvious faithfuls. That's what you're doing today. Very clever. Whether James is doing it with you, I don't know. But that is what you are doing. So you say that and you go, okay, we'll move on to the next person. A little bit of shade back on Michael, but certainly comes off you. But James, because he's wanted to do this from the

25:49beginning and absolutely fair enough. You have to play the game you want to play at, you know, he just went, oh my God, it's like at the end of Scooby-Doo that someone just pulled his mask off, but they haven't. Yeah. I would have gone away with it. Yeah, you would have gone away with it. The pesky kids are useless. If it wasn't for your pesky self. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I would have gone away with it. Yeah, you would have gone away with it. The pesky kids are useless. If it wasn't for your pesky self. So yeah, I think he just took the opportunity. I think he had found a way to play the game as a traitor and I enjoyed watching him. I think he didn't want to go into that end game. He didn't want to go into the bit

26:19where you're really going to have to look people in the eye face to face and just say, yes, it was me. And I think he thought, if I go here and now, then at least Maya and Kenny have a chance. But doing what he did, which is, doing this is a very, very, I mean, he gave away so much more than had he been obviously just voted off. He attempted to. Yeah, he because when you're just standing in that circle, you just get to say I've had a lovely time and then pay out it. Paid out quite slowly that you were a faithful or a traitor. He described the whole in a life of it. He was like, I was made a traitor without wanting to be. I had a unique experience on this that no one's had before. I wanted to do it

27:07and be logical. If you can't do any of this in the circle, you've just got to say it and leave. So he bent the normal conventions of the game very significantly by doing this. But here's my thought. I love James Acaster. Yeah, me too. I've said before, I think he's the funniest comedian of the last 30 years. I think he's brilliant and I think he last 30 years. I think he's brilliant. And I think he does bend the conventions of everything he does. And he did it here. And that's, I get it. I absolutely get it. But as gameplay, it's a hand grenade for sure. But it's not helping us through the drama of the show. I think it's interesting as a character study. I would absolutely defend his right to do it.

27:49For the show, again, so, yeah, the Faithful have got rid of three traitors. Two of them literally told them they were a traitor. Okay? So, really, they've got rid of one traitor, and that was Hannah Fry. Yeah. Who, you know know it seemed fairly obvious at the end of that round table they're sort of kind of going well that's what I thought because I knew the theory was this it was one theory of many first it was Sharon's theory it was one theory of many you didn't know for sure we would have moved on to other people and James just said I'm a traitor I mean that's not traitor hunting that's just it's every series is, that's not traitor hunting. That's just, that's, that's, it's, every series is different.

28:27That's for sure. And the question now is, do we have an absolute barnstormer of a final episode because of what just happened? Or do we have a slow crumble of a final episode? I think there's an opportunity we still have a barnstorm of a final episode. And I'm glad that this series is different to other series because it has to be I'm going to talk a little just at the end about what the producers will do for next series just to make sure the next one isn't exactly like this one Well they've got a final of six which is interesting Two traitors Yeah I enjoyed the little vignette at the end with Michael and Maya. Absolute cap tip to the producers there, because they're watching all this live and they work out,

29:12because as soon as they work out who goes back home in order, and they can always do it in whatever order they want, and they do it in the order that Michael and Maya are left alone at the end, probably for 15, 20 minutes, with somebody just saying, yeah, is the car, sorry guys, the car's still just, it's, probably for 15, 20 minutes, with somebody just saying, yeah, is the car... Sorry, guys, the car's still just... It's going to be about another 10 minutes. Sorry, is that all right? But we're still rolling. Just to let them stew with each other. And that was absolute textbook classic traitors. That's what's given me hope for this next episode. Because once James Acaster had taken away... I i mean whether or not he would have been i don't think he would

29:49have actually been banished by the way um but once he's taken that away and just taken them off the possibility of that particular cliffhanger they needed a really good dramatic moment that wasn't just like hey it's the final tomorrow it's not like you need to hook people back in for this because they're going to be here but i thought that they did it really well the scene with michael and my and they'd work that out on the fly as well you know they absolutely knew what the story was they could see in their head how that was going to edit together and they got this is going to be a brilliant it was so brilliantly awkward uh yeah just on that james thing and i i all I want to say is he has been truthful

30:26all the way through, which is he came on there statistically he's not going to be made a traitor. He's told the producers I definitely, definitely don't want to be made one. He accidentally becomes one and I don't know how else you play it. If that's what your heart is really telling you, I don't know how else you play it. And the further and further he got, you could tell he did not want to be in that final episode, like around the thing with kind of, you know, red flames and green flames and lying to people's faces. He just did not want to do it. I get it. He could probably sense that he probably wasn't going to be voted out unless, you know, unless he'd done terribly. In a nod to another traitor's best work, he'd come on our show called Traitors by Mistake, hadn't he?

31:08Yes, yeah. But, you know... I get it. You don't know how it will affect you and whatever. And I understand that. But in terms of the audience experience, which we must all think of, the audience. As producers, you're thinking, ah, that's annoying. That's not how we would have chosen this to go but again like traitor so often is an incredible kind of insight into character yeah you know so we have a final episode we leave at the end of the episode michael and maya both put in cars michael driven back to the hotel. Maya driven around in a circle and then back to the turret. And I would say this. Maya and Kenny they're up in the turret. There are five there's two of them. There's five faithfuls.

31:52Bash, Leanne, Romesh, James B and Michael. They don't have James with them anymore so they can finally traitor. I think they're going to have to turret like they've never turreted before. But what's the only thing that they can do? Kill Michael. I think they have to to have to turret like they've never turreted before. But what's the only thing that they can do? Kill Michael. I think they have to. They have to kill Michael. It's not at a point where you go, oh, but is it too obvious? It's a revenge killing. Michael the hero found our guy. Brackets, James told them. And so we're going to kill him as revenge. And then you go in tomorrow. And he mentioned everyone on that day. Yeah, yeah, he really did.

32:28And by the way, they've just got a traitor as well. So it's like Michael did his job. He got the traitor. The other traitors are like, if you send one of us to the hospital, we send one of yours to the morgue. And that's what they've done. If they don't kill Michael, I don't know what to say. Yeah, because... Other than they have faltered massively in the final stages of the game, having actually, given it was, as we always said, like a ship that pulled in different directions or whatever the metaphor would be. Nonetheless. Yeah, ship that pulled in different directions. Yeah, one of those ones. But to change the vote and then to not murder Michael before, these are... Yeah. The business end of the game,

33:11making those decisions has not been great. So if they don't murder him this time I don't know what to say yeah I think Michael would Michael would be furious if he doesn't get murdered he'd be like what oh no Michael believes it now Michael believes he can win now no he definitely does my favorite moment Michael on this was when someone called him the father of the table yeah and you could see him going I suppose am I the father of the table. And you could see him going, I suppose, am I the father of the table? If it falls to me. Like I guess Nye Bevan was the father of the NHS, I guess. Maybe. I saw someone on House of Games when we were doing our handover thing and someone had just had a baby called Nye.

33:37And they asked Michael to do, as Nye Bevan, a thing to them to say congratulations. It was so brilliant. Being the father of the table, that's, I think would be Michael's dream. You have to get rid of him. If you don't, if you do get rid of him, then you've got Maya and Kenny versus Bashley and Romesh and James B. Maya stood in trouble a little bit. Yeah. There's ways and means that her and Kenny. I think she's in quite a bit of trouble actually. There is, if you are Kenny, you can win this game in a heartbeat now whether he chooses to I don't know I don't think he will I think that he will choose to try and protect Maya that's my sense if he didn't want to do that then he has a very very simple

34:20route through we all get rid of Maya everyone's happy no one knows if you know at that point who's a traitor who's not because just to be super they no longer say when they depart probably get rid of james b or maybe leanne and then the three remainers you know say him bash and romesh they just go i think i think we're all faithful aren't we are we happy are we happy with that i think we've got rid of we got rid of a lot of traitors. A lot of people told us they were traitors, and we agreed. So Kenny has a very simple route through. With Maya, it's slightly harder, because if James and Bash are going to go for Maya, Kenny and Maya, of course, will have to go for one person. I would say choose Leanne, possibly, or choose James Blunt.

35:02Choose one of those two. Don't choose Romesh or Bash, I don't think. They then have to persuade Romesh or Bash to join with them which might be difficult I think but Kenny if he wants to win just absolutely joins the Maya bandwagon joins with that and then you pick off a Leanne or a James well tell us about your theory about the next series then and the producers. I think that the two series, I mean, this is so successful, this series. It's been crazy. The numbers are still huge. People are absolutely loving it. We're talking pure gameplay. You understand that there's like bits where as students of the game, sometimes you're like, oh, I can't, we can't quite get, this is not quite getting that kind of traction

35:43that you wanted to get in gameplay terms it's certainly getting in entertainment terms so I think the next series they will look for game players they'll really look for game players I swore yeah I know they know it's my dream that Christian Horner should go on this show and I'm just going to keep saying it because I want it to happen it's quite hard to get people from sport sometimes to go on things, because if it's not the natural world, also some of them are actually working. You and I had a very lengthy exchange about which tennis stars we thought should. Yes, I would love McEnroe. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of, yeah. And you said you prefer Henman. Henman would be good. He would be good, actually.

36:21Murray would be amazing. I so want that. Either Murray. What about Navratilova? I mean, there's lots of different people yeah that's quite yeah this but you yeah you need some people from sport yeah people from sport or with with that sort of background but you need you want yeah you two or just only two or three so you need just a couple of game players to be in there bella was the big game player on this one and was banished very, very early. So you can never do the perfect casting because people will be kicked out. But that is the thing they will be looking for, is people who want to absolutely explore the full limits of what it is to play that game. And you're always, as a producer, like a tennis ball being knocked back in the direction you were last hit.

37:04Always. You're always reacting to the last thing that happened. And I think that's the direction that they were going. So tomorrow, we're doing a live stream reaction. I am not here because I'm up in Manchester with the Luke Littler show. But you're joined by a friend of the podcast, Tim Hinks, who has produced more reality shows than virtually anyone else in the world. So I can't wait to hear his view. It will be really fun. Yep. But I just immediately afterwards live. Prediction. I think if Kenny... Kenny could do it, I think. He could, but I think he will try and support Maya. And I think that will be difficult for him. But I think it's hard for them to catch Kenny it is hard for them to catch Kenny I think he is he's the despite mistakes now because

37:53he has hasn't been faultless but he could still do it I mean I could absolutely see a final three of Romesh Kenny plus another all just shaking hands and saying I think we've got it here even though they'll remember the Alan Carr thing which might that might just nudge them into doing one extra um banishment but yeah god if i was if i was kenny's been brilliant yes he has he has he 100 has just been sort of minted as a kind of mainstream star now yeah uh. Maya, I feel sorry for because, again, this whole thing was knocked off the rails very early on by two very, very easy evictions. And it just meant that the faithful have not ever quite played the game properly and so have not accused Maya earlier on.

38:39If she'd been accused earlier on a couple of times, she would now be plain sailing. I agree. It's the fact that at no point has anyone mentioned her name and that in itself has become the suspicion against her. And that's the thing that might doom her. I'm excited to see it though. I'm so excited to see it. All right. And I can't wait to hear your reaction as well. Oh God, I just can't wait. All right, everybody. See you tomorrow. I'll see you tomorrow. Coca-Cola. For the big. For the small. The short and the tall. Peacemakers. Risk takers. For the optimists. Pessimists. For long distance love. For introverts and extroverts. The thinkers and the doers. For old friends and new. Coca-Cola. For everyone.

39:47Pick up some Coca-Cola at a store near you. Hi, I'm Emily, your friend and jeweler at Shane Company. Wear a small box with a burgundy bow will help you win the holidays. As an in-house designer, I love creating meaningful, fine jewelry gifts. Choose a necklace with a gorgeous infinity charm to symbolize your everlasting love. Or go for a personalized piece with an engraving, their zodiac sign, favorite color gemstone, or their initial accented with pave diamonds. Because a friend wants you to be a holiday hero. Stop by or shop now at shaneco.com. Shane Company, your friend in jeweler. Hey, Bo's here. Soon you'll dive into your year-end music the songs the artists the hours quick question though how much did you really listen to hear every last note on bo's quiet

40:32comfort ultra headphones your music deserves bo's