Why does Sarah Paine reject the idea that NATO expansion caused the Ukraine war?

Sarah Paine called the NATO expansion argument Putin's propaganda. She said the United States never pressed former Soviet bloc countries to join; they rushed to join after the Soviet Union seized their power ministries after World War II, purged rival parties and sent tanks into Hungary. She added that Russia has never atoned for any of this, which is why its neighbours fear it.

• Paine lived in the Soviet Union in 1988 and 1989 and recalled a grocery store holding a total of 77 items.
• Paine pointed to the Scandinavian countries as proof that a cold, resource-rich territory can be developed without conquest.

▸In their words

“These folks were stampeding to NATO's doors.” Sarah Paine · at 1:18:23 — open in the transcript →

Source: our own transcription of the episode. The full conversation is on The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett (2026-10-29). Read the whole episode summary →

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