13-yr-old Twin Brothers’ DNA Found On Murdered Woman - Cops Must Figure Out Which Twin Is Lying

0:00in berlin there is a very fancy department store and i'm gonna butcher the name and i'm never gonna be able to face a german person with dignity so i'm just gonna call it berlin's barnies berlin's sacks you walk in and most things are gonna be in the cases the locked glass cabinets the lighting is always pristine so everything looks so sparkly in there it's like the trademark of every expensive jewelry store department store the lighting is so good you can make a plastic candy wrapper look like some naturally mined yellow diamond just sparkling in the light that's this type of department store and they don't just carry jewelry they have very expensive watches the ones where they say oh sorry that's only for exhibition and then you have to buy like 10 other things before they let you buy the one watch that you wanted in the first place. There's a lot of money sitting in those cases. So much so that the store employs motion detectors. They have an extensive security system for the entire place, which is the premise of every good heist movie, every good heist TV show. The plan is simple. Get in, grab the best stuff, get out, and don't get caught. Plot detail that must be included is the doors are all censored, impenetrable. However, there will be a skylight. You can just unscrew the nails, remove the skylight, throw in a rope, slide down it, just like the three masked

1:17men in Berlin will slide down the rope to partake in a shop after midnight special where they get the entire store to themselves. It sounds like a movie. This is very much real life. They take $6.5 million worth of fine jewelry and watches. Instead of leaving behind a credit card to finance their very rushed transaction, if you will, or their after pay details, they leave behind a singular glove. And inside that glove is a singular bead of sweat. DNA evidence. Authorities run the DNA. They get a hit. It's too easy. Of course it is, right? It links back to someone with a criminal record for theft and fraud. Times two. What do you mean times two? Two counts of fraud? Two counts of theft? What do you mean? No. The DNA links back to two people with criminal records for theft and fraud. So what, did they just change gloves in between and they both sweat into it? How's that possible? It's DNA. Two people don't have the same DNA unless you're an identical twin. Two 27-year-old brothers, H and A, are arrested based off of the fact that the DNA in the glove links back to them. So here's what we know three masked men one glove with dna belonging to one of the brothers only one of the twins could be involved or both of the twins could be involved neither of them are willing to talk or cooperate which means it

2:35really could be either or and that's all the evidence they have nothing else this is a real heist yeah in berlin when was this a few years ago so like what do you do you how do we know it's three people they saw three masked men on the camera yeah but only dna for one person was left behind and they don't know which twin they don't know if both the twins are involved if maybe the two twins are two of the three people or if only one of the brothers was involved so what do you do do you throw both in jail just in case you can't wait so dna cannot identify which twin no never you can now but it takes sometimes a million dollars wow and there's only a handful of companies in the world that can handle that both brothers the twins even though at least one of them was most likely involved in the heist both of them have to be released. Because prosecutors cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt which twin or both were involved in this case. Within the week, both twins are released before the case can even go to trial, and the court writes in a statement, from the evidence we have, we can deduce that at least one of the brothers took part in the crime, but it has not been possible to determine which one. And the diamond heist in the crime but it has not been possible to determine which one and the diamond heist in berlin goes unsolved identical twins develop from a single fertilized egg so

3:52that splits into two embryos so they essentially share the same nuclear dna and while it's not exactly the same it might as well be okay a normal dna test done in the event of a crime usually scans about 20 fixed markers because that's how different everyone's DNA is and that still takes multiple days 20 spots in the DNA and compare if you're trying to find the difference between identical twins because they do have differences you would have to sequence the entire three billion base genome at ultra high depth one sequencing expert describes it like this imagine the human genome consists of a 3 billion letter code. If the body is growing or an embryo is developing, then all 3 billion letters have to be copied. But during the copying process in the body, there are typos happening. Identical twins have the same DNA, except sometimes maybe about 8 typos. Or a few cells will split and evolve differently here and there. But again, it's on average about eight differences across the whole 3 billion genome. So on paper, 3 billion should be identical except the eight typos. Yes. There's only a handful of labs that are capable of running this level of a test. And even if it's done, it costs taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars, maybe up to seven figure mark and a lot of the time it can't

5:09even be really used in court because of how novel it is. It's very easy for defense attorneys to get it thrown out or for them to confuse the jury with it. Is it going to get easier in the future? Probably. Is it going to get cheaper in the future? Probably. But right now, is it a problem? I think so. Especially when in the United States, you have a case in Ohio of a woman who lives alone getting essayed and murdered in her own room, in her own bed. And the DNA left at the scene, it traces back to a set of identical twins. Two 13-year-old boys are the main suspects of a rape and murder. But which twin is the guilty one? And how are investigators going to figure out which one is the killer? This is the case of the Cart twins. We would like to thank today's sponsors who have made it possible for Rotten Mango to support the Joyful Heart Foundation, who are working to transform society's response to SADVCA and support survivors healing with resources like education, advocacy, and policy change. This episode's partnerships have also made it possible to support Rotten Mango's team of dedicated researchers. We'd also like to thank you guys for your continued support. As always, full show notes are available at rottenmangopodcast.com. There is a brief mention of suspected SA and some quotes or statements may have been condensed for brevity.

6:26Let's get into it. Becca and Kyle are no longer together, which is probably for the best. By all accounts, it appears the two are much healthier when they're focused on co-parenting their twin sons. You've got Hunter Cart, who is two minutes older than Levi Cart. They're identical twins, but they look kind of more like fraternal twins than anything, which is just an observation. It's not like all identical twins have to dress the same or look the same, but it's just an observation. Hunter and Levi clearly have their own styles, their own personalities, their own interests. They're two completely different people. Hunter has longer hair, almost down his shoulders and he seems at least from the initial body cam footage he seems to have a much more softer demeanor just based off of that. He seems like the type of student who would sit next to you if you're alone during lunch period. Meanwhile Levi who often goes by Louis these days has more of the skater kid look. He looks a little bit scrawnier. He does have long hair but not in the way that Hunter does. It looks like a skater kid look he looks a little bit scrawnier he does have long hair but not in the way that hunter does it looks like a skater kid why does levi go by lewis he just decided he wanted to go by lewis one day so everyone's been calling him lewis so if you hear lewis and levi interchangeably in the body cam footage it's because they're talking about levi but it's not legally changed

7:41no no not at all now he's got long hair sharper jawline he also appears to have a soft quiet demeanor but in a different way from hunter it he seems like the type that maybe he wouldn't sit next to you if you're sitting alone in the lunchroom because he too is probably sitting alone is the energy that you get could i be wrong probably okay we don't know that much about them yet other than a match to their DNA was found in a woman's bed Denise's bed where she was killed but Becca and Kyle the cart twins parents they don't know that Becca and Kyle are just concerned about how this ongoing police investigation in their neighborhood is going to impact their twin sons Kyle texts Becca I was telling Levi not to assume the worst but I knew it was a bad sign when there's just that many cops with no lights on all standing around. Usually means they found a body and they're holding the site down until forensics and investigators arrive. Was she killed at the house? They're talking about one of the neighbors on the street who was just killed in her house. And as much as the parents want to try and shield the teenage twins away from everything going on on the street, it's very hard to do that when you live, what, 50 feet away and the police are knocking at your door trying to get answers. They're knocking on everyone's door. The police investigation into what happened to 64-year-old Denise has been both very straightforward and complicated all at the same time.

9:00Denise's brother, Daryl, is the one that finds Denise. It's Sunday morning. They had lunch plans. She's not picking up. 11 11 a.m. Daryl is messaging her. Are you skipping lunch? Daryl doesn't know it yet but she's already gone. Within the hour he comes to her house. He walks up to the front door and he goes to knock on the door and it just gets pushed open when he knocks. The front door is unlocked. He walks inside and he sees his sister inside laying on her bed. Her pajamas are ripped, exposing her chest. Her pajama pants are ripped. She has blood in between her legs. The blankets are covering her face. And on top of the blanket, there's like a porcelain figurine. Like, you know, those collectibles that you see at those antique shops that have almost like a vintage feel to it. But it'scelain figurine. Like, you know, those collectibles that you see at those antique shops that have almost like a vintage feel to it. But it's an angel figurine. And it's placed on top of the blanket on top of her head. So her face is covered with this blanket. And there's this angel figurine on top of the blanket. And Denise is not moving. The crime scene is just really odd. Even when the police are walking in for the first time with their body cameras on, they're really confused by the scene. Because of course the angel figurine is confusing but there's also other things like they asked if maybe the brother Daryl had covered her up because he didn't want the police to see her like this but they're like no dispatch said he was he found her

10:17like this there's also a bunch of cleaning chemicals like bottles of cleaning chemicals and Pepto-Bismol they noticed like this pink liquid all over her. And it's just someone poured Pepto-Bismol on her or maybe she drank it. They're contemplating. The investigators are like, well, maybe she drank it. We don't know. Pepto-Bismol is for acid reflex typically. So you've got bottles of cleaning solutions, Pepto-Bismol, cleaning chemicals dumped on her body. And just what? Are they trying to get rid of biological evidence there's also blood splatter on the walls the blood leads all the way out of her bedroom on the floor there's a trail of blood to the back door and then from the back door to the very back gate of the backyard fence there's blood there too whoever did this though didn't leave any fingerprints so they're wearing gloves police start scouting the neighborhood they're going to door to door they're asking residents can you take your shirt off because they found blood hair and dna under denise's nails and they're like we just want to see if you have some scratch marks so you just see body cam of neighbors taking their shirt offs and showing them getting dna swabbed and of course while investigators are checking for scratch marks or anything suspicious residents are also sharing what they think happened. OK, one neighbor reports it might be Dave. Dave, you know, OK, so it's around midnight. She'd been sitting out on her

11:36porch, one of the neighbors. She's with a friend and they're chit chatting and they see this balding white man with blonde hair, medium build, Dave. Okay. His name is Dave and he's drunk. He's drunk and walking around the neighborhood near Denise's property. That was Saturday night. Is he a neighbor? Yeah. He lives in the neighborhood. They go investigate Dave. They don't think it's Dave. One neighbor asked the officers, you guys think it's random? The officer asks him what he's heard. Well, from what I heard, you know, a guy down in that new house over there, a couple others. I was out here having my cigarette and I hear, I think the brother did it. And they're going to arrest him in a couple of days, like three days. I'm like, what? So they think the brother did it. Any reason why you would think that? The brother of the victim? Yeah, Daryl. I don't know. That's just the speculation right now so he's just saying he's smoking a cigarette he overheard neighbors saying the brother did it the police do get sidetracked into a mini investigation into daryl the brother he's the one that called 9-1-1 he's the one that found his sister's body he's relatively calm on the 9-1-1 call but not in a particularly suspicious way to me it just sounds like he's trying to relay information as quickly as possible but something that's very interesting to officers is that when the police originally walked in they don't rule out the possibility of self-exit

12:52the Pepto-Bismol the cleaning supplies they find some prescription medication in her house I mean it could be possible that she self-exited trying to ingest these chemicals the blood could have been hers because she could have been throwing up blood from the chemicals they don't know yet the investigators they have no clue there's a bit of blood splatter but again maybe it's hers furthermore one of the first things Daryl tells the officers is that he believes his sister was S8 how can he be so sure they didn't think that when they first walked in also Daryl never performed any sort of life-saving measure to try and save his sister he says he walked in and quote when shearyl never performed any sort of life-saving measure to try and save his sister. He says he walked in and quote, well, she was laying on the bed with her legs spread and it looked like there was blood and, you know, on her head and stuff on top looked like someone tried to smother her and she looked like they ripped her thing open and I yelled at her and I didn't see no movement from her whatsoever. I just turned around and I walked out and I'm like, I can't. He doesn't try CPR. he doesn't try to save her not that I think it would have made a difference but for those reasons the police do investigate Daryl and it doesn't help that when they reach Daryl's home it's a bit of a hoarder situation and he explains to the officers almost in an embarrassed way that his mom had recently passed and his sister had passed so his home had gotten a little worse from the stress. They check his body for scratches and they check his DNA and he is very

14:11quickly ruled out as a suspect. But it doesn't stop the neighbors from whispering on their porches and pointing their fingers. One neighbor particularly does not care who did it. They just want the police to make sure they get vengeance and they quote say find that fool and he needs to die the police are like this is a intense neighborhood they go to the next door and this time they're right across the street from denise's residence so they've actually knocked on this door prior but nobody was home so they're coming back around after they've done their little you know and a woman with bright pink hair opens the door. Becca. She's the mother of twin boys, Hunter and Levi Cart. She talks with the investigators outside and she mentions the day that they found Denise. It's actually like a really busy day. So it's been like a week since that. And she's just saying, oh my god, like that day was really intense for us. She explains that when all the ambulances had come onto the street Sunday morning, they weren't even home. Actually, Sunday morning at like 6 a.m., we had to run to the ER because my son, the cat, I guess, was sleeping on his face and they startled each other in the dark and it scratched him. And so we were worried that it could be bad or infected. It wasn't a big deal, but it was just like traumatizing. And I was like, everybody get in the car. Cat scratches. Okay, that's very interesting so the police immediately allowed that's going off right cat scratches in the middle

15:32of the night the investigators want to talk to hunter and levi cart just to just ask them if they've seen anything weird or strange outside and becca is a bit hesitant she's just worried about how the news is going to be delivered to them she doesn't she doesn't want them super traumatized they're only 13 she was thinking about ways to break the news to them but they seemed really stressed out this week and just there's been a lot going on in the house. She mentions multiple times to investigators she would rather not use the m-word murder if we could. You know she's worried about how it's going to impact them. They're just in the seventh grade. They've been homeschooled but also they're we're about to move out of state so there's just a lot going on. The investigators quickly find out that the twins they are 13 and they are very young but they both do like watching true crime documentaries but that doesn't make them somehow better candidates to finding out that a particularly cruel and random crime just took place across the street so they decide that they're going to be a little sensitive with it the twins maybe it's shock or just their outwardly reactions they take it pretty well mean, I guess as well as you would hope two 13-year-olds take it. Levi Cart is just listening to the news of what happened to Denise, their neighbor.

16:51He nods his head up and down. He's got his arms crossed. He's more in shock and how it relates to him. He's like, you know, this random day we had to wake up trying to do photos. And then it's this. What does that mean, do photos? Yeah, what does that mean, photos yeah what does that mean right so the cart family explains okay so we're actually like a week or two of moving out of state to long beach california and so we actually had an appointment that day sunday for the real estate agent to come and take photos of the house so that we could put it up on the market so we've been really busy like all weekend trying to make the house super clean and just get ready for the move and that's the day that Denise is found so it was chaotic meanwhile Hunter has a more true crime investigative approach Hunter responds I don't know how many case details you can put out but like what do you guys suspect or what do you guys know about what happened he's asking questions the investigators aren't about to debrief a 13 year old kid about their investigation they just respond well I can tell you this it shouldn't have happened and we need to figure out why it happened so that hopefully we can keep it from happening again because we hate to miss on some evidence and if you've watched enough tv you know we don't want to be those cops that forgot to do this or look into that Hunter's like I've watched plenty tv Becca mentions you know like they're both really into true crime and levi shakes his

18:06head no but hunter interjects me and my brother especially my brother know a lot i would say definitely my brother knows a lot about just the police in general levi just looks over at hunter kind of looking at him like what do you say what do you say and their mother informs the investigators levi wants to go into the marines when he gets older oh nice nice well recruitment is always here so the police are just going along with it but they are very suspicious yes because of the cat scratches i do not believe there's in any world where becca has any sort of inkling or belief that one of her twins has anything to do with what happened to denise across the street so my next question is completely unrelated and hypothetical for parents out there. If you have more than one kid and you get a call from jail, does your brain immediately jump to one kid over the other where it's like, oh, it's probably my second kid because they're a little bit more wild or it's probably my first kid because they've had run-ins with the law before. Like, do you immediately think of one child before you hear the voice on the phone? Or sometimes, okay, okay maybe jail is extreme like what if you find out that someone in your house one of your kids has been googling traits of a sociopath would you have one kid that immediately comes to mind or you're like oh I'm so clueless I don't know why any of my kids would would you have multiple kids that you would think of when the investigators talk to the cart twins it's been about a week since denise's murder and the investigators they start asking him

19:28about the past weekend the weekend that denise has killed what were you doing do you remember anything investigators ask the twins separately so they're still in the cart house they haven't gone to the police station or anything they're just standing in the living room and hunter is like well that weekend was a blur because um so hunter was really sick hunter's explaining like i was throwing up for a few days straight i couldn't even leave the bathroom and levi had to go to the er because the cat scratched his face pretty badly interesting and he says yeah that whole weekend was a blur they asked levi the same question and this is again separately and he more or less is the same thing and he says that weekend was a blur it's an interesting word choice like not one that i would often use to describe my weekends but like maybe that's just me the investigators are a little puzzled by it i think they get the twins together now they're both sitting on the living room couch while the investigators are telling them about what happened across the street and maybe in an attempt to reassure the investigators they can handle this type of tense information hunter mentions that the two of them are much more mature than the other kids their age especially levi which i would think normally seems like a compliment but levi looks a little confused where this is all coming from why hunter keeps yapping hunter even brings up levi's injuries he has other scars on his back from another surgery that he did and now he has the

20:48new one on his nose from the cat to add to it. And Hunter asks Levi in front of the officers, how does it feel to have three scars? And Levi is just staring at his twin brother, deadpan in the face for a long time, not really answering. answering eventually the investigators want to leave but not before collecting both of the twins dna cheek swabs for dna testing and it comes back a match for both but that doesn't mean that they're both guilty but because they're identical twins they share the same str markers like i said which means the police now need to find out if one or both of the twins are guilty so when it came out came back a match yeah did we see how they reacted to that or we don't have that information we're going to see what we do yeah so the investigators they go back to the house but they don't immediately say any of this they their whole objective is to get the twins and becca to the police station where they can separate the twins record their reactions and start interrogating them okay so they've got like a very tricky balancing game that they have to do of trying to get them there without officially detaining them because they can't so it's this weird back and forth of like let's it's just you have to okay so the dna could point to both the twins you can't just arrest both preemptively

22:06because it's one or the other. All of this is very tricky and it's even trickier because they're both minors. So they come up with this profoundly dumb plan, the investigators. We're just gonna go to the house and see if they'll come back to the police station. I don't even think they had a plan. They go back to the cart house and the family, Becca, Hunter, and Levi are walking back in with a bag of canes, raisinges and their drinks they're just about to sit and eat when the police ask them why don't you guys come to the police station like do you mind coming with me to talk about what happened across the street and becca's like sure but then as she's getting ready to go because like wait why do we have to go to the police station like last time you guys just came to the house and you were talking to us like why do we have to go to the police station like last time you guys just came to the house and you were talking to us like why do we have to go to the police station and she even asked do we need to be getting lawyers or something i'm feeling nervous about this you're welcome to call an attorney one of the twins levi seemingly agrees with his mom and he's asking also do we have to go like is this a right now thing or is it like a we would like you you don't have to do anything i suppose the whole energy is so tense like you, you don't have to do anything, I suppose. The whole energy is so tense in the house. You don't have to go, but also like, I'm just going to stand here as a police officer and not leave. So now it feels like you kind of have to go, doesn't it? Becca points out, okay, I don't know. I feel uncomfortable.

23:22And even in my dumbest days, I would not think this is a smart plan for the cops. But they say, how about we get out of here and we kind of explain what's going on. So they're like, let's get out of the house so I can explain what's going on. Can you explain what's going on before we head out of here? Do you mind if we do that outside? The investigators get the entire family onto the front lawn and they're all awkwardly standing there, still holding their Raising Cane's food and their drinks like hunters holding two red like soda cups. And they're just outside. And it's weird and it's confusing. And the officer. Yeah. The officer tells them, well, let's go to the police station so we don't have to like stand in the rain and talk about it. So you went from inside the house and say, let's go outside and talk about it. Now it's raining outside. It's drizzling. And then he's like, well, why stand out in the rain when we can go to the police station? So they're playing by the ear. No plan. No plan. Let me just move them one inch at a time. Yes, exactly. I mean, again, I'm not saying the police aren't doing their jobs, but was this really the best that they could come up with? It's just a little odd. He says that he has some pictures he wants to show them and talk to them about certain things. Becca's like, are we under suspicion or something we just want to talk to you I think you guys could help us clear a lot of things up around here eventually Becca agrees she gets placed in one car the twins in the back of another squad car and of course the cameras

24:38are rolling perhaps the authorities were hoping for some kind of Isabel Valdez Lois Lippert situation where they just start yapping in the cop car about how they committed a crime, but they do not get that. But the energy with the twins is weird. They're in the back of the police car, still holding their food, and Hunter says, I mean, it's probably more questions, so. I mean, there's nothing we can't talk about. Levi's like, yeah, I don't know what's going on. Neither do I. Levi mentions this is all very, very unexpected. His voice doesn't sound surprised, though, or like he was not expecting it. It just sounds like just weird. Hunter has a slightly more normal response and he mentions my anxiety levels are through the roof. Yeah, I don't know why there's so many police vehicles either yeah that's definitely what scared me seeing all those cops immediately pull up like one person's there you know didn't see that other cop pulled up right yeah i was just like what's the reason for that i don't know maybe it's an intimidation tactic i guess but why would they need to intimidate us right levi saying that yeah It's just a weird interaction. Because I feel like either you're not talking about the case or maybe you're like, God, I was hungry and I just wanted to eat. Like, what's wrong with the cops? Or you're just quiet or you're talking about something else.

25:57When they get to the police station, the twins are separated from Becca. They come in through a completely separate entrance, which seems to be a bold and deliberate choice by the investigators, which I think is kind of questionable. Becca can sense what they're doing and she does not like it one bit. So she was hesitant at the house. She was a little bit agreeable on the front lawn, but still hesitant. Once she gets to the police station, they bring her into a separate room and she's like, oh, fuck no. OK, they're trying to distract her. They keep trying to get her to eat her raising canes. And she's like, oh, fuck no. Okay. They're trying to distract her. They keep trying to get her to eat her raising canes. And she's like, I don't want food. I want to get us our lawyer. Because she's like, I did not think that I was going to come to this police station and not see my kids. I'm supposed to be with my kids. They're 13 years old. Why are you talking to my kids without me? What are they telling her exactly? She's like, oh, we just want to talk to you guys. We just want to talk to everyone. And she's like, where are my kids? Yeah. She yeah she's like well you can't talk to them without me there because i'm their mother and they're minors yeah she's like i want to get us our lawyer and have my children stop being questioned without the lawyer being present immediately so let's make that happen i think she is rightfully protecting her underage sons like none of this is out of the norm like this is actually what a good mom should do now the police however they try to stall and their stalling methods are beyond me one of the officers compliments becca's slippers saying they look so comfy where'd you buy them and becca's like yeah they are comfy and she's like

27:17really i know you're being friendly but i need to know that my children are not being questioned and that they have a lawyer you didn't let us know that we were being detained. You're not being detained. You're free to go. You didn't let us know that you were detaining my children. They're free to leave. Right now? They're allowed to leave right now? Let's go right now. Right now. You said they're allowed to leave. Yes or no? You cannot take them. Okay? I don't know what the police are saying at this point. They also take Becca's phone so she can't even contact her lawyer, which all of this, really, the investigators are working hard to create a migraine-inducing headache for prosecutors later. Like, the DA's office is not going to like any of this. And technically, I do believe in Ohio, there's no absolute rule requiring a parental lawyer to be present before police question a minor. But the way that they're handling this, I would imagine could invite some legal murkiness to say the least. They have Becca in that one room of the police station. Hunter and Levi are separated in different rooms and they are now going to start questioning the boys separately simultaneously to get their stories. Levi is obviously going to be the main focus mainly because of his curiously timed cat scratches on his face. And Levi is sitting there in this small interview room. He has like that

28:32slouched, relaxed body language of a 13 year old, even though this is a very, very serious day for him. He's wearing a hoodie and he somehow looks like he just woke up. He has his Raising Cane's styrofoam container in front of him a red soda cup with a straw in so there's just holding this bag and not eating at all the whole time yeah so they separate like levi is the one holding the bag so they're getting him to open check which one is his because some people got the coleslaw some people got the fries they bring the styrofoam containers to the other two so everyone has their food in front of them and the investigators keep encouraging all three of them eat eat and they're just like why am i here why am i not eating at home is any of them eating levi is eating a little bit in the beginning but yeah they all stop because they're like i don't know i also think that they just are eating because the police keep telling them to eat but becca is not eating she's like where the fuck are my kits levi says in the interview that there's a bit of context to the whole thing with the cat scratches okay so the family is moving to long beach california in about a week which means they're packing they're boxing everything up right and quote you know cats get weird if you know that when you're trying to move and we had just moved his play set so that you know he was he probably thought like oh something's happening. The officers want to know more about the cat incident.

29:48And Levi explains, well, okay, so the cat Marshmallow sleeps with my mom. Sometimes my brother, not really with me. So he woke up, you know, and Marshmallow is laying on Levi's chest. And I woke up and I was like, what's going on? I was freaked out because I like felt something on me and I had had sleep paralysis before so I was kind of like freaky and then I tried to touch him and he got obviously scared he was like what's going on probably so he started scratching at me started scratching my face and he well he first started scratching at my arms because um I was like trying to get him off of me because I didn't know what was going on so like he scratched my face you couldn't really see it you can't see it anymore but yeah he like scratched my face here and then uh he scratched me with his biggest claw which we've been knowing we needed to cut for a while now for a long time like he scratched me on the nose like right here really really hard because we both like extremely spooked each other just like a lot of scratching going on but now that he thinks about it levi questions maybe the cat heard something outside because that was the night that denise was killed across the street so like maybe the cat was like extra spook because animals can sense stuff like that's kind of what he's hinting at what does this scratch look like on his face though now he had stitches he had five stitches on his nose in the hospital it's been about a week since then and the scratch has healed pretty well but

31:06he's saying there were other scratches and they seem to be primarily gone like it seems mostly gone okay so the face like doesn't look very it's like a like a scar on the nose but it's not wow oh my gosh you got messed up by the cat it's just like a nose now. And so maybe Marshmello heard what was going on across the street, got freaked out and scratched Levi. They're like, that's a pretty deep cut for a cat named Marshmello. I mean, to be fair though, Levi's mom does explain that she felt really bad about her son getting scratched by Marshmallow because they all knew that they had to cut Marshmallow's nails for a while, but they hadn't gotten around to it. And investigators, they need to make sure that they're not so distracted by Levi's cat scratches that they miss other details that might be important, like the fact that Levi has a twin brother, Hunter, whose DNA was also technically found at the scene because they share the same DNA. Levi is an over explainer. He likes to go in depth explaining everything that's happened to him with the cat but Hunter in his own way is also a talker. He's sitting in the interview room with the two officers. He's eating his raisin canes just telling the police about his life story. He's talking about how they're about

32:24to turn 14 next month and he mentions when it was mom's birthday me and levi were play fighting and i pushed him and he ended up breaking his hip okay interesting at some point he realizes that the questions are starting to feel a bit more serious and he asks can i stop eating because they keep telling him to eat so i feel like he was he felt obligated to eat and he's like can i just stop eating please yeah he doesn't feel comfortable he also reiterates that he doesn't feel pressured to answer any questions and he says I mean of course I feel a little pressure but I don't feel like I have to sign these papers I just know more suspicion is put on me if I don't answer any questions he immediately starts the interview saying can I say something I want I want to say I want to let you guys know I know this is more so about me but just letting you know my brother um every time I talk about it with him because I someone have a I wouldn't say morbid curiosity but I went online and looked up the news for it after you guys came in so they're like oh interesting you looked on google what happened across the street you know which in his defense wouldn't everybody look on google right but it's important exactly what he looked up it's one thing to google murder on blank street it's another thing to google how do police find dna at the scene composite sketch of killer on blank street right so the investigators ask him can you show me what you looked up do you have your phone on you no i don't have my phone on me and even if i did literally the day a few hours after they came in um actually i

33:42don't remember if it was the day before or what but my charger broke in my phone and it stopped working and then we were able to get the piece of the charger that was broken in out and now it's charging fine but the battery is basically fried so unless I have it plugged in 24 7 it's going to turn off and if I try to enter my passcode or turn on the lock screen or anything like that it's going to turn off how'd that happen I'm not sure um for a while my phone has had a crack in it because I used to have some anger issues um yeah I used to have some anger issues not too far long ago but uh mostly fixed I would say we mostly fixed all of our anger issues uh honestly this just kind of sucks because it really seems like obviously I looked into it and I thought about it and my mom thought about it and Levi thought about it coincidence wise because I don't think um I don't think my brother would be able to do anything like that because that day he got scratches on his face because you know that day he had to go to the hospital and then he decided to go to dad's house so then he wasn't in the neighborhood it all seems like a very wide coincidence because of course his face was scratched by the cat so he's almost like working through his thoughts out loud which is like the last thing you want to do in front of the police but he's like no my phone broke and but like I also know that now that makes everything suspicious because I thought about it clearly my mom was thinking about it Levi was thinking about it and then I know that like I don't think my brother would do it but like I know that he has the scratches on his face which are kind of weird he also mentions that his

35:00brother Levi calls himself a narcissist but Hunter is, but I don't really ever think so. But it's interesting that Hunter mentions that. So when they talk about Hunter's phone, he says the phone is cracked. If you open the case, it's like cracked because the glass is cracked. Because like I said, I threw it when I had some anger issues before. I used to get mad about games, like losing games. And then I would just throw stuff because I was just getting like really, really stressed out. He says that because of his anger issues he also broke his computer okay interesting the police are like well what were you doing Sunday morning was he also recovering from some scratches did the cat attack everybody they asked him about the morning that Denise's body was found the same morning that Levi was in the ER for getting stitches for the cat scratches and Hunter says so I went to bed and then I woke up at like 8 30 8 50 I don't know and my mom and Levi were gone and I kind of freaked out for a second and I checked my phone because this was before my phone broke and she was like Levi got the cat scratched so I had to go so we had to go to the hospital and then I think they I think I just sat for a while before they got home and then my mom got home and then that morning wait yeah no so we went to bed I woke up and got those text messages and then I think I waited a while because I don't know if it was my mom or if it was just mom and Levi who came back home

36:19so he's just like I don't really remember. Investigators ask Hunter, has Marshmallow ever scratched anyone before? Like, is that why it's so crazy? No, he's never done anything like that. Does he usually sleep with Levi? No, not usually. That's why I thought maybe he heard something outside and wanted to protect Levi. So Levi sleeps in the living room. So they thought, you know, maybe he, the cat heard something, freaked out, went to the living room and then attacks Levi but Hunter gets sick around this time so after Levi gets back from the ER from getting those stitches Levi actually asked to go to his dad's house and mom and Hunter think that's actually a good plan because Hunter's throwing up non-stop he's like so sick he's having explosive diarrhea he's vomiting at the same time and that lasts multiple days and whatever Hunter has is probably contagious and with the commotion across the street it's just a lot going on hunter remembers when he was in the bathroom he does recall seeing some blood on the sink from where levi was trying to see how bad the cat scratches were before they went to the er he says there was like blood and stuff on the sink and stuff but mom tried to clean it up but there was still a little bit of blood after and we spent a long time in the bathroom and then she was just like oh my god Levi got blood everywhere and then I think it's gone now. Was it a lot of blood or a little bit of blood? A little bit of blood. It's

37:34interesting because the over explaining can come off suspicious for both parties but I do feel like it's understandable when you realize they're both true crime documentary watchers and this is actually something that I thought about in a lot more recent cases because I had this like run-in with a police officer recently like nothing was happening there was no like case or anything but I just remember I was like looking for where the body cam was on his body while I was talking to him about something completely unrelated because it's just interesting now that I watch so much body cam footage now I feel like I'm looking for body cam cameras because it's something that I think about. And maybe the same thing is happening to Hunter and Levi because Hunter even states to the police, like also me stuttering has nothing to do with like you guys being here, just so you know. He's trying to explain that he just stutters. So now he's like going into this over explaining territory of like, no, no, no. But like, I'm trying to be open with you. But then even saying I'm trying to be open with you seems like I'm not trying to be open. it's he's over explaining self-analyzing yes he even admits to the police that he watches a lot of body cam videos also he goes back to explain you know like the whole thing of like levi calling himself a narcissist so he mentions it and he's like well i don't think so and he he explains he's like levi is just the one who always says that he you know he's always saying that he's this thing when he hasn't been diagnosed with anything like it like saying he's probably slightly manipulative like stuff like that

38:53just because his trauma has made him feel this type of way honestly it's really upsetting for me like he knows all the um I don't know I don't want to call it disorders because I don't think that's what it is like but sociopath it's obviously a very wide range of things but from sociopaths to narcissists personality disorders to stuff like that basically he knows a lot about them and like what they mean I think it's because he does a lot of research into it because he thinks or he knows that he's slightly manipulative because he's you know he has trauma and he's very much so expressive and we talk about all of our feelings and i don't know like we're all going through a lot of therapy so it's almost like now he's just like preemptively telling police things he's just talking a lot he continues later to say he's like levi is very very open to us about how he's feeling the way he feels like i don't want to go in depth about it because i don't know um i think i'm probably using the wrong word but i guess i don't want to go in depth about it because i don't know um i think i'm probably using the wrong word but i guess i don't know if it's like i'm incriminating him i think i'm definitely using the wrong word but like talking about how he has all this trauma especially abusive trauma when he was a kid he certainly has certainly has a lot of potential to make somebody who has the mind to do something like that and i know that because he's talked about all these things well what is happening right now yeah now the investigators are like what do you mean

40:08all these things i mean i know from him because he's told me because he's done research about it on the internet like his knowledge about what the difference between sociopath and the other ones and knowing how you know many to kill in order to be a serial killer and you have to kill people and stuff like that. I think it's just like he just so happens to have a... Am I allowed to ask you guys anything? Sure. Do you guys have any suspicions? Do you guys think he's a suspect possibly or am I crazy? Like, is he not a suspect at all? Is this just normal questioning to try and help solve some stuff and I just seem like a crazy person right now? Is he feeling connecting the dot in that moment? It seems like from the beginning, he's just like yapping, yapping, and he's an oversharer. And then as he's yapping, he's like explaining, well, my brother would never do this. I know he has some traumatic incidents in his childhood, which also watching true crime documentaries. I know that that can make someone more like capable of doing something like this. So it's almost like he's like analyzing. So, you know how people will be like, oh, the three trademarks of a serial killer, dark triad of the personality right like it's almost

41:27like he studied that and as he's explaining levi and why levi could never do something because i think he walked in there thinking the police suspect levi because of the cat scratches and it seems like he's trying to clear his brother's name but as he's talking he's almost getting more and more going down the rabbit hole what's his levi's childhood trauma did they explain or not really yes so he explained that his grandfather on his mother's side is in jail for heavy abuse i believe his mom was a victim of her own father and maybe other family members were victims but it seems to be related to childhood trauma in um probably the worst way possible please just reassure him you don't seem like a crazy person some of the stuff that you said makes sense and i don't know maybe this is a way for them to just keep him talking and And Hunter clarifies, am I sitting here because he has those scratches on his face and because it looks like he's a potential suspect? Or am I just here to like clear some things? Like it has nothing to do with him possibly being the person who did that thing. I would say there's inconsistencies with what we know versus what you guys said yesterday.

42:43And we're going to get more information hopefully and it's interesting to watch because it appears that hunter goes through weird stages so the first stage is just explaining and almost like the true crime explaining of like i watch the body cam footage i know that we look suspicious but i'm gonna tell you why we're not suspicious and like now me over explaining feels suspicious like now i'm stuttering and you think that's suspicious and then it goes to him being like i know my brother has all the things that could make him possible but like and then he's like wait am i doing too much like am i wouldn't i don't even know why i'm here why are you guys why are we talking like he lost the plot right so he's like what do you guys suspect him or not right yeah and they say this vague language of like, well, we're just trying to get more information. And that's when Hunter starts defending his twin. And he's like, well, his cat scratches seem like cat scratches. And the cat has been acting weird. Like he's been acting weird the past few days because we've been moving stuff around. He's just like a very, very, very needy cat. And Coco, our other cat, was a kitten when we got her. So she was just born for like a few weeks. But Marshmallow was a year old. So it's possible he had some trauma and that's why he's very, very needy. And just now he's somewhat gotten used to us after, I don't know, like a year or two. And then all of a sudden we start moving stuff around. So it's completely understandable that he would freak out.

43:58But to me, it's completely understandable that the cat attacked him because he freaked out because he was sleeping next to him and he woke up. And he tells the investigators because it's clear the investigators feel like his twin brother had something to do with it hunter tells them i don't think he did it because like i feel he's told me many times like he's a very open person he doesn't have the capacity to do something like that like i don't feel like he has the capacity to do something like that and even if he did like even if he did it impulsively he would not be acting so like, oh, I don't care afterwards. Like he's a kid. And I think most kids, if they killed somebody, they would tell their parents unless they're like, I don't know, like unless they just like didn't think it mattered at all. But he talks about this stuff all the time. Now, interesting information to sit on. Investigators who are also in Levi's room have a very different approach from hunters. It could just be that hunter appears to be a bit more talkative and open to give out information without being asked, whereas Levi seems to give out a lot of information, but only when he's pressed on it. Once the officer is done reading Levi his Miranda rights, he needs to clarify and make sure 13-year-old Levi gets it. With these in mind, do you want to have a conversation with me? Well, I guess it states that I can quit having a conversation with you. I'm not sure what this is necessarily about. Do you know what we're

45:14investigating? I mean, I know something happened on the street, across the street, across the street in front of me, right woman was murdered right so we're trying to find out what happened okay so that's what we're investigating the investigators ask him to walk them through saturday night and like the wording is weird levi says they all went to sleep quote so we all went to sleep and then honestly it seemed pretty normal none of us like really woke up for a couple of hours neither of them did how does exactly yeah why would you speak for your yeah and then i think i think at like 2 30 maybe 2 30 in the morning or two i'm not sure in that time area my cat had randomly woke me up with all the lights off like sitting on my neck he says that marshmallow is sitting on his neck and he decides that he's going to freak out on levi levi says that he gets scratched by the family cat marshmallow he starts cleaning himself up. He goes to the bathroom. Quote, there was a lot of scratches on me. And then I spent like, I don't know, like three hours maybe. Or a long time trying to fix myself up again. Three hours? Yeah. And to give some context, like fixing myself up. Or the reason why I didn't like ask my mom or my brother or wake them up. Is because we're literally about to do photos that day. Like family for the house because they're gonna sell the house he explains I don't

46:30want to be this kid that's constantly waking people up or being like an annoyance when they're trying to sleep so I just try to clean myself up the best I could I try to like clean up my face he also scratched my neck then I decided to take a shower because I was like that's probably the best thing I'm gonna do so I took a shower and I spent like, yeah, I guess like 30 minutes in there a long time and tried to see what was going on. And like, how do I explain it? The shower sprayer. So like the handheld shower sprayer is kind of reflective. So I was trying to see what was going on and I was like, okay, well, holy shit, this is really bad. He states he's in the bathroom for three hours he's showering for like 30 minutes all of this seems like an awfully lengthy amount of time but maybe it's just late at night he doesn't really know how long it was maybe it wasn't three hours maybe it was 30 minutes it just felt like three hours the officers ask him what he wears to bed because that should also have some cat scratches i don't wear anything to bed nude he sleeps in the living room couch nude he sleeps in the living room yeah he's been sleeping in the living room recently so he's just sleeping in the living room nude he says he has some sheets and there was some blood on his t-shirt that he uses under his pillow so he uses like a t-shirt as a pillow and he has some blood on there from when the cat scratched him this is all very weird now back to the shower so he's in the shower and he explains because of my disability as well I used like a

47:51shower chair because I can't really stand for that long without getting super fatigued or falling or just walking around for too long and so I didn't use the shower chair because I didn't want to make a bunch of noise and wake everybody up so I ended up literally falling and I fell and like hit my head on the shower hose he says the shower chair is outside the bathroom and he didn't bring it in himself because I'm also not like really strong enough to do that so I never do that. Is it heavy? Yeah it's pretty heavy. Well not that heavy. Just like I know it's too heavy for me to have enough strength to pick it up. The police are a little confused because like why not just tell your mom at this point? He keeps mentioning the house photos and the detectives are like well you're not in the house photos. I know but I don't want to have to like wake her up and have her tired or have her be annoyed that I was getting her up super early and it was like 2-2.30. Now by all means it seems like Becca is not the type of mom to be upset. So the bleeding kind of stops and Levi decides to just try and eat and watch some YouTube but he says I was doing that and as I was watching YouTube I was super exhausted honestly like shit because I barely got any sleep and I was just like I don't know what to do I know I can't go to sleep in this state so I started kind of crying honestly kind of loud he says he starts crying so loudly that's what wakes his mom up and it's just interesting like his body language to watch in there like he has these he'll yawn in the

49:10middle of a sentence and it's not a pause it's not like he's pausing and getting bored and yawning which would already be alarming in a police interrogation but he'll just be talking about how he wanted to eat and watch some tv after he cleaned himself up so he's like i'm just gonna sit down and eat and watch some tv and then, and then I ate. It could be the stress of the interrogation, not that he's guilty. It's just a stressful thing to be in a crowded room with two investigators as a 13 year old, having no idea where the lawyer is or where your mom is. But it's weird. At this point, it's like 5 30 AM. He says, thankfully, once he started crying, his mom came down the stairs and was like, are you okay? He says, no, not really. And I was still crying and she told me not to cry because that would make it worse. And then something to make this situation more funny, quote unquote, as soon as she went in the kitchen, she opened the cabinet and got the band-aids. So this entire time that I looked for band-aids for like 30 minutes, it was right there in the kitchen. But when he gets back to the house after going to the ER, he says that he was super emotionally triggered. He says the cat had scratched him. He starts seeing investigators outside, ambulances outside across the street, and he just wanted to go to his dad's for a few days, even though that was never part of the original schedule. But you didn't know what was wrong with Denise, right? I mean, like you just saw ambulances. That's about it.. Yeah I just thought it's just crazy

50:25though. It was crazy in my mind and I started assuming what had happened. What did you think happened? I don't know I just thought you thought it was a coincidence. I didn't think it was a coincidence. I was just jumping to conclusions. Mom was like she probably just had an accident or she fell over and I was like hopefully. I was like yeah and even this right now is honestly starting to make me feel kind of emotionally triggered when you get triggered does it ever make you angry no just makes me sad sad or like hyper emotional so it made me feel like really gross that something else had happened and I was already in an emotionally triggered state so I kind of felt like really sick to my stomach and I felt really gross having to think about what if something happened to somebody right next to me or the house right in front of me and it made me feel really sad and I started crying even worse Hunter didn't even know what to do so I decided to go upstairs so I could try and stop thinking about it but you know I didn't like having to think about something else was happening so I didn't have to feel worse it's just weird so he asks his dad to pick him up so that he doesn't have to think about something else happening to somebody while something had happened to him and there's just a lot of cop cars and he stays there for probably a week trying to feel better until he comes back

51:40have you ever been in Denise's house Levi responds neither my mom my brother or Have you ever been in Denise's house? Levi responds, neither my mom, my brother, or me have ever been in that house or even close other than I guess walking distance. But he does mention that Hunter, his brother, would mow lawns over the summer. But Levi isn't sure whose lawns he mowed. At some point he mentions, I heard my mom and my brother, my brother loves true crime or something. He's very investigative. He tried to search up the audio. I didn't hear it. Or I guess they said that there was like a 911 call, I guess. They or my mom said that maybe she had been raped or that somebody said that it looked like she had been raped. Which in my mind doesn't really feel like self-defense if it was rape. Doesn't feel like self-defense? What doesn't feel like self-defense if it was rape doesn't feel like self-defense what doesn't feel like so the investigators are like well we don't really know what happened to denise maybe someone went in there and denise attacked them like maybe it's self-defense he's like well if she was raped it wasn't self-defense and it's just a lot of weird conversations happening and at some point the investigator says he's just trying to wrap his brain around this like the investigator is like i'm just trying to wrap my brain around this entire case i don't know how it happened there's two people there but i don't know how it happened and i'm just trying to figure it out levi response could have been three people i don't know that's

52:58a crazy response well i mean yeah there could have been more people you know they can't rule out the possibilities, but investigators believe that there was only one person involved and they need to know which person it was. And so far, it's looking like Levi is the one they're most suspicious of, especially with the cat scratches, until they find out that there could be a chance that he's not capable of being the killer. Investigators find out that Levi has cerebral palsy, which is a group of movement and posture disorders cerebral being the brain and palsy being weakness or problems with movement so usually this um this forms from an injury in parts of the brain that control the muscles so it's not from the muscles themselves but it's from the brain that controls the muscles. Now, investigators have to figure out if Levi's CP would make it so that it would be impossible for him to carry out an essay and murder. And there's just a lot of people that live with CP that live completely normal lives where they play intense sports, where they it's actually encouraged to play sports for a lot of people living with that condition. And they live you wouldn't even know that they have cp but then on the other side you do have people where it greatly impacts everything that they do and it does make it very difficult for them to do things that an

54:17able-bodied person would be able to do easily so they found out during this interrogation or yes and they don't know where on that scale Levi is. So that is where I leave you with part one of this two audio part podcast. Stay tuned for part two, where we go through the rest of the interviews with Levi and Hunter Cart and the moment when one twin finds out that his twin brother is guilty. With that being said, stay safe and I'll see you in the next one