200. Kim Philby: Unmasking MI6’s Greatest Traitor (Ep 5)

0:00for exclusive interviews bonus episodes ad-free listening early access to series first look at live show tickets a weekly newsletter and discounted books join the declassified club at the rest is classified.com Has the past finally caught up with MI6 officer and KGB spy Kim Philby? His best friend has been sent out to Beirut to confront him, but who will win the showdown? Well, welcome to The Rest Is Classified. I'm David McCloskey. And I'm Gordon Carrera. And we left off last time with MI6 officer and Kim Philby's friend, Nicholas Elliott, arriving in Beirut to confront Kim in this feels like a final bid to extract a confession from his friend about his past and about his work for Soviet intelligence.

1:01Now, Philby has been in tight spots before. He's been brought in for questioning, as we discussed in several of the episodes in the series. In London, he has dodged the law up to this point. And the question now is, will he be able to wiggle his way out of this one? We left off at the very end of the last episode with the door opening to the apartment where Philby is going to meet his friend, Nick Elliott. And he has these amazingly interesting kind of ominous words where Philby says, I rather thought it would be you. And we'll come back to those. But first, a word from our sponsor, HP. This episode is brought to you by HP. In intelligence, you quickly learn that you are only as strong as the network around you. It's rarely a single major event that undermines

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4:25The two men shake hands. Nicholas Elliott asks about the bandage. Remember, Kim's got this bandage on his head from the... He fell into a radiator. Yeah, so it's an obvious question. They sit down. It's tea rather than booze at four o'clock. Ominous. Ominous. Peter Lunn, who is the new MI6 station chief taken over from Nicholas Elliott. Peter Lunn is sitting next door with headphones on listening to the recording. Now, they are recording everything, but they've opened the window to the apartment, which means there's going to be a lot of traffic noise. And this is going to annoy some people later because it means that bits of the tape are going to be indistinct. But we know quite a lot of what was said.

5:05Was that on purpose? Good question. But we do know quite a lot of what was said. And it's interesting. We've got bits of Elliot's account. We've got the official account from notes of it, which have only recently been declassified by the British government in the last year or two, start of 2025. And we've got some of Philby's account. So this is pieced together from those different accounts. But Elliot says, I'll get right to the point. Unfortunately, it's not very pleasant. I came to tell you that your past has caught up with you. Philby laughs. Have you all gone mad once again? You want to start all that after all these years? You've lost your sense of humor. You'll be a laughingstock. You can see what Philby's there doing.

5:43We've been through this before. We haven't lost anything says elliot on the contrary we found additional information about you and it puts everything in place what information philby says what is there to put in place elliot stands up he paces the room goes to the window looks out and without turning he says listen kim you know i was on your side all the time from the moment there were suspicions about you but now there is new information they've shown it to me and now even i am convinced absolutely convinced that you worked for the soviet intelligence services you work for them right up until 1949 date. Very interesting date. Not chosen randomly. No, it's so interesting because we're going to get into the complexities of this conversation

6:32because there's so much to unpack. But this is already interesting. Why 1949? Well, that is when Philby became head of station in Washington. Exactly. And so if he worked for the Soviets until 1949, but stopped, then he wasn't spying for them when he was in Washington, which would be quite helpful because it stops the risk of the Americans coming after him and prosecuting him and wanting to get him for spilling their secrets. It also seems on the face of it, totally implausible that he would have somehow stopped working for Soviet intelligence on the cusp of taking a role that would have been exceptionally valuable to them. Yeah. And it's so interesting because it's Nicholas Eliot suggesting this to Philby.

7:20We know you stopped in 1949. And a lot of people will think this is one of many suspicious parts of this conversation. And there are many parts which people think are suspicious. And this is one of them. Because if he stopped in 49, then basically the Americans can't try and extradite him to the United States and prosecute him there. Would the Americans have tried to do that? They could have at least in theory have said, well, you know, you're not prosecuting him, but he spied while in the United States. So we want to put him on trial. So that might have made the offer that's coming of immunity more valuable if that had been the case. So already you've got this thing because Elliot's brought this up.

7:58It's almost like Elliot is suggesting, wouldn't it be useful if you said you stopped in 1949? And it's so interesting because, you know, Philby, and we've said this before, haven't we, that he's the guy who doesn't crack under pressure. He kind of holds his nerve. And in his head, he must be thinking, well, what do they have? They have something new, maybe, probably. But what is it? He'd have to think it's a defector, right? That someone came over and pointed the finger directly at him or gave yet another piece of circumstantial evidence that gets them a bit closer. So Philby says, who told you this nonsense? It's totally absurd. Elliot, Kim, if you were in my place, if you knew what I knew.

8:39Classic line. I believe we've heard that line from intelligence officers we've interviewed on this show. Only you knew what I knew. And he says, I wouldn't talk to you the way you're talking to me. And how would you talk to me? And Philby says, well, I'd offer you a drink instead of this lousy tea. He's like, why are we drinking tea? And then again, Elliot, do you want me to give you my version of your work for the Russians? It's kind of curious, isn't it? And then he says such a weird Elliot line. I understand you. I've been in love with two women at the same time. It's an interesting starting point for the conversation. I mean, and I'm certain you were in the same situation in politics. You loved England and the Soviet

9:21Union at the same time. And then again again you stopped working for them in 49 he says that again yeah i'm absolutely certain of that elliot says and he says i can understand people who worked for the soviet union say before or during the war when of course you know the soviet union was an ally of the you know so he's basically saying we can excuse it during the second world war in the 30s because you know that we weren't enemies then. But by 1949, a man of your intellect and spirit had to see that all the rumours about Stalin's monstrous behaviour were not rumours, they were the truth. You decided to break with the USSR. I mean, again, it's this suggestive bit of... And Philby shrugs and says, you came here to interrogate me,

10:00and I keep thinking I'm talking to a friend. And then Elliot explodes. You took me in for years. Now there's a line around here which Elliot recalls but Philby never recounts when he's recalling this conversation. Perhaps it cuts a little too close to the bone even for Philby because Elliot says, I once looked up to you, Kim. My God, how I despise you now. I hope you have enough decency left to understand why it's quite interesting is that the philby doesn't want to recall that line hurts too much or i think philby liked his friends even though he's betraying them you know in a weird way and then i find this line interesting elliot after exploding seems to kind of come back down to earth a bit and he says

10:46i'm sure we can work something out and then he gives kim some options says well if you reveal everything give us every contact every other soviet penetration you're aware of every piece of information report you passed and then i can give you my word and that of dick white who's the head of mi6 at this point that you will get full immunity you will be pardoned but only if you tell it yourself yeah that is the offer and if you don't play ball then your passport is gone you're never going to come back to britain your children are going to have to leave their schools they're going to be disgraced you'll be a le leper. That's the word Elliot uses. And he says to him, you've got 24 hours to decide what to do. I'm going to

11:29come back four o'clock tomorrow. And as Philby leaves, Elliot says, I'm offering you a lifeline, Kim. And it's interesting. So, you know, that in his mind, I think Elliot thinks it's gone quite well because Elliot goes to Peter Lunn, who's been in the kind of room next door listening, And it's interesting. So, you know, that in his mind, I think Elliot thinks it's gone quite well. Because Elliot goes to Peter Lunn, who's been in the kind of room next door listening, saying everything's OK. Kim's broken. And he telegrams Dick White in London to say he's going to break. But the question is, you know, does Philby come back? Yeah, I mean, he's got a whole day. He could split. Yeah. But he comes back.

12:04Yeah. Next day, four o'clock, he's back. This time they have brandy. A bit more relaxed. He gets a proper drink. And it's interesting because Philby starts with flattery. He says, I wouldn't have spoken to anybody else. He's kind of playing into the Nick Elliott thing. And when you said you believed the evidence, that really did it for me, Philby says. And he says, I've had this particular moment in mind for 28 years. And he talks for a couple of hours. And he's going to write a document, mix of truth and fiction. Basically, it suggests he worked for the Soviets from 1934 until 1946, he's going to say and he basically says at that point he became disillusioned with with communism and more of a believer in socialism he says he only tipped off

12:54mclean as a friend in 51 and he's had no contact with the kgb and he's got no contact with them now and there's a kind of two-page summary a kind of narrow admission which he's going to sign. We'll come back to some of the strange bits of this, but some people will think it's a pretty well-written document for someone who only had 24 hours notice to think about what he was going to admit to or not. It's only two pages. It's only two pages, but it's a well-thought-out two pages, I think. And I think the problem that he's realising, Philby, is that Elliot wants names. You know, Elliot's going to push him for names of other traitors. And if he doesn't get those names, he's kind of saying to Philby, if we don't accept your confession is accurate and complete, then you can still be prosecuted. Because again, at this point, it's probably worth reminding listeners that through defectors,

13:48Soviet defectors, MI6 knows that there is a spy ring of at least five members, two of whom have fled to Moscow, McClain and Burgess. Philby is the third, but there's at least two more. And he probably knows who they are. Exactly. And Philby says, that's why I's at least two more. And he probably knows who they are. Exactly. And Philby says, that's why I've got to spend time thinking about it. You know, it's all or nothing. He says, I know that. But then he says something interesting, which is in the farce. He says, I'll say everything within the dictates of my conscience and without damaging anyone who matters to me. It's a strange phrase, isn't it? Because it's suggesting there's limits. It's not exactly full and complete.

14:29But Elliot still seems to believe Philby has crapped. He sort of has because this is the first time he's admitted to actually working for Soviet intelligence. And I think that's what's so interesting is that Philby doesn't do what he's done before, which is deny everything or say, I don't know. And I think that's one of the interesting things about this moment is he does crack. He does give away things. He does partially confess, which is something he later says, never confess, you know, always bluff it out. And so you do wonder, what is Philby thinking at this moment? I think it's because of Jackie. He's still tortured by these dead foxes. It's the fox. It's the dead fox. The dead fox, the dead father. you do wonder what is philby thinking at this moment i think it's because of jackie he's he's

15:05still tortured by these dead fox the fox it's the dead fox the dead fox the dead father dead father dead fox i mean i i guess apart from the fox and the father i suppose the question is do we think he's even thinking about taking the deal yeah i mean is he is he thinking maybe I could do this? It's strange because he's not bluffed, Elliot the 42 year sentence that george blake got yeah and obviously he wants to avoid that so this is potentially a way out i mean i think though keep your life you know keep your family immunity maybe live on in beirut i don't know i think what is what's hard for me to imagine is he just he's such an ideological guy yeah his political ideals are i mean he's essentially a religious zealot yeah

16:08for communism you know because the thing he can trade are two names yeah at least at least at least two yeah i'm skeptical that he would have ever really considered it what it does seem like as someone who's playing for some time yeah and trying to work out what his options might be but he can't maybe he felt like he had to give a little bit to get this process going to draw it out and then he could he could work out as we'll see with the soviets what his options might be yeah i think that that is plausible i think i mean elliot Elliot that day thinks Philby's finally broken. They agreed to dinner. That seems bizarre. And at one meal, Elliot finds Philby unconscious and he's drunk a whole bottle of whiskey and he and Eleanor take him to bed.

16:55They meet again socially. They act in front of Eleanor as if nothing's happened, but she can see that they're both anxious. They go to the urinals and Philby hands over another document, you know, a further kind of confession. So they're going to keep meeting. Elliot has a list of names to put to Philby. Blunt and Cairncross are on it, who are the fourth and fifth men. But there are also some others. So there's Tim Milne, who's a current MI6 officer and an old school friend of Philby. And it's interesting because Philby, when he's given names, tries to muddy the waters. He says, no, nothing, you know, don't worry about Blunt. But Milne, maybe. It's like my old school friend. Yeah, maybe you should look at him.

17:35So he's not being honest. And Milne is not a spy. Well, he is a spy, but not a Soviet one. So I think Philby, as this process goes on, realizes this is going to be hard because if he's going to play this game with them, he's going to have to give people up. He can't just say, I was a spy and walk away. No. They're going to kind of come at him with names and he's going to have to decide what to do. But at this point, Elliot thinks that they've got him. We'll come back to this kind of slightly odd mystery. Elliot says he's leaving for a trip to Africa because he's technically running Africa operations. Peter Lunn's going to take over and finish the debrief with some more questions. Some would come from the Americans who are being informed.

18:18So back in London, the head of MI5, a guy called Roger Hollis, has written to Hoover at the FBI to say there was no evidence, but that Philby had worked for the Russians after 1946. So don't worry about your secrets. But they're saying to the Americans, you know, Philby's in poor health. He's emotionally, you know, under pressure. He shouldn't be aware that the Americans are cognizant of this confession and this process because that might, you know, kind of throw him over the edge or cause problems and might prejudice this kind of process of drawing out the confession. It's a very convenient stance to take, isn't it? It's a very convenient stance to say to the Americans, like, leave it with us.

18:55And in fact, if you get more involved, it'll be counterproductive for both of us. Yeah, don't come storming into Beirut and, you know, kind of try and confront him because we're handling this, say the Brits. But feel free to send any questions. If there's anything you'd like usut and, you know, kind of try and confront him because we're handling this, say the Brits. But feel free to send any questions. If there's anything you'd like us to ask, you know, then please do send it on. But here's the problem. Philby has decided he wants out. Now, the timeline of this is interesting because there's quite a few days of meetings. And if you read the accounts, it's unclear, including from Philby's own account and the soviet accounts when exactly

19:26he gives a signal to the soviets and i think that's interesting because you know some of the accounts say it's after the very first meeting which would be logical which would be logical although if on the other hand you think maybe philby is thinking about it it might not be after the first meeting it might be a bit longer so that's why I think that detail is interesting. But at some point very early on, Philby goes to his balcony and he describes this actually on the tape, which club members can hear, which is Philby himself talking about this confrontation, this experience. So do join the club at therestisclassifier.com if you want to hear Philby himself discussing this. But he talks about it being immediately after the first meeting with Elliot.

20:09He holds a book rather than a newspaper on his balcony. That means it's urgent. And a few hours later, he's meeting his KGB handler and explaining what's happening. Messages go back to Moscow. When they meet again, his KGB contact says, I think your time has come. There's room for you in Moscow. But it will take a few days to organize getting you out. And he will signal by walking past Philby's balcony. And if he's holding a book, it's time to go. And as he's waiting, Lunn, who's the MI6 station chief in Beirut, calls. Because remember, Nicholas Elliott's gone to Congo. So Lunn says, are you ready to talk to Philby? And Philby basically says, I need some more time. Yeah, yeah. He's buying time at this point.

20:55There's lots of interesting mysteries here. Because Philby hears from one of his contacts in the embassy that Peter Lunn is going skiing for four days in the mountains now this sounds very weird until you know firstly that peter lunn is an obsessive skier who'd actually skied for britain in the olympics so there's this talk that peter lunn's going off because there's been some good snow in the mountains we'll come back to this because it may or may not be true that peter lunn's disappearing but ph Philby supposedly is told this during this period as he's waiting to see Lunn again for the kind of next stage of the confession. So the crucial day is Wednesday, the 23rd of January, 1963. That's right.

21:40Kim Philby and his wife, Eleanor, they're due to go around to friends from the British Embassy for dinner. A violent storm has swept into Beirut that day. It's winter. Now, late in the afternoon, Philby takes his raincoat and tells his wife he's got a meeting. And he'd be back at six o'clock, time to head for the dinner party. He goes to the bar at St. George's Hotel, has a drink or three, uses the phone. He calls home. His 13-year-old son, Harry, who's staying there, you know, it's kind of holidays, answers the phone. And he tells Harry to tell Eleanor that he's running late and he's going to meet her at the dinner party around 8. Eleanor goes alone to the dinner party. She apologizes for her husband's lateness promising he'd be there soon

22:26the hours pass gets to past 9 30 everyone's eating without him gets later no sign of kim what's happened to him eleanor must be quite upset at this heads home through the storm at midnight she calls peter lunn no answer from peter lunn strangely peter lunn has gone to the embassy already even though it's midnight eleanor gets a message to lunn's wife eventually lunn calls would you like me to come around i'd be most grateful she says she's worried that philby he's not turned up for dinner has been in a car accident maybe and also she suggests maybe he's gone for one of his lost weekends basically a booze you know a boozy bender as he sometimes did that's a romantic way to describe to describe having 200 drinks in two days but literally black hole of a weekend

23:20but lun seems calm and he says let's wait till the morning he cables london the sun rises over the mountain the next day eleanor knows he's gone it is their wedding anniversary i mean unbelievable unbelievable unbelievable only philby well so i guess this is the big question is what happened to philby in beut? Yeah, and Philby sees the signal from his KGB officer that day, although it seems like the KGB officer maybe mistakenly used a newspaper rather than a book, meaning when they meet, he doesn't realise this is it and they're going. Picked up by a car with diplomatic plates, Philby is in the back, KGB man in the front. They go to the harbour at Beirut. Car pulls up alongside a Soviet freighter. He has to walk just a few steps in the front. They go to the harbour at Beirut. Car pulls up alongside a Soviet freighter.

24:07He has to walk just a few steps in the open. Steps on board. The captain looks tense. Shakes hands with Philby. Philby goes to his cabin. There's cognac on the table. He's been given the identity of a Latvian sailor who was aboard the ship, but he was now getting very, very i think in a beirut bar the ship leaves suddenly and it leaves before all the cargo has been loaded on this freighter ship it's leaving in a hurry and the storm means it's a rough night now what we know and we only find this out much much later is there's a long journey philby eventually will arrive at Odessa, which is now Ukraine. So at first, no one has any idea what's happened to him. And it's kind of interesting because you'd think if

24:53he disappears, it would be immediately news like in Beirut. But actually, I think one of the things you realize is he's a journalist who's traveling all the time. And he has lost weekends. So I think people think, well, he's either on a bender or he's off on a story. I mean, Beirut police are kind of a bit curious about it. At one point, it seems like they wonder if Eleanor has killed him. She's trying to cover it up. There's a note about that. Lord knows she'd have motive. But then Eleanor in Beirut starts getting hand-delivered letters. One on February the 2nd, so kind of a week and a half afterwards. It's from Kim and it says, I've been called away on short notice. Tell everyone that I'm on a tour of the region.

25:36And he says there's some money hidden in a Latin dictionary. P.S. Please destroy this as soon as you've found the cash. And the city is starting to come alive i think with rumors of where's kim but still no one's sure a few weeks later someone else knocks on eleanor's door and hands over another letter from kim this one tells her to buy a plane ticket to london but also more quietly to prague and go to an alleyway in beirut and write in white chalk the date and time of that flight to Prague and then burn the letter after reading. She instead tells Nicholas Elliot, who's now come to Beirut. For Eleanor, it's weird. I mean, your husband has vanished. I don't think she knew he was a spy. I mean, she takes the kids to London that summer.

26:21And she's meeting with, like, Nicholas Elliot. She's meeting with head of mi6 even and you know they're trying to convince her that actually you know he might have been a wrong end and they're worried that she's still a bit of a loose cannon and actually is still in love with him which she is and in september she's going to get another letter from kim and this time and we'll come back to her story she's actually going to go and follow his route but that's going to be way off in September interesting enough Nicholas Elliot also gets a letter hand delivered you know like these ones to Eleanor and it's from Kim and this is so interesting it says I'm more than thankful for your friendly interventions at all times

27:03and he suggests this is Kim to Nicholas Elliot, who's still in MI6, that we meet on neutral ground, perhaps Helsinki or Berlin to talk. The tone of the letter is if nothing has really happened. Now, Elliot thinks this is all an attempt to kind of implicate him. And instead, of course, he goes to tell MI6. So he sends a message back and includes a great line put some flowers for me on poor volkov's grave volkov of course was the defector who philby betrayed yeah and led directly to his death yeah but there's one more line in the letter that's really interesting from philby to elliot it says, our last transactions were so strange that I cannot help thinking that perhaps you wanted me to do a fade. A fade meaning a runner.

27:55Well, and this raises an absolutely massive question, which is, did Philby really escape or did MI6 actually encourage him to flee? Let's take a break and we'll come back. We'll see which one it was. Shaq here. What's it like to buy a car from Carvana 100% online and get it delivered to your door? Let me tell you. Your car is here, Mr. Shaq. Thank you, Mr. Carvana guy. Can't wait to take it for a spin. Only the best for you, Mr. Shaq. Hey, have you always been so big, tall, and handsome? Not always. I was 6'10 once. Seven days to love it or return it, Mr. Shaq. Not that I would. You never do. No, I never do. So buy your car today on Carvana. Delivery fees may apply. See our seven-day return policy at Carvana.com.

28:42This episode is brought to you by Indeed. You're ready to level up your business, but the pressure to find the right person to make that happen is intense. Indeed Sponsored Jobs can help carry the load. It boosts your job post to help it reach quality talent fast. Cut through the chaos with Indeed Sponsored Jobs. Get a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring now? Then this is a job for Indeed job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring now? Then this is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It's officially the holiday season, and Abercrombie's new collection has outfits for everything on your calendar. It's the busiest time of year, and between shopping and party invites,

29:22I don't have time to plan every look. But Abercrombie's always got me covered. Their sweaters are the perfect easy layer for low-key plans. And on a nice night out, I'm reaching for their classic trousers. Fill your closet with the pieces you'll need all season long. Have a very Abercrombie holiday. Shop in the app, online, and in stores. Well, welcome back. I mean, I think this is the big question, and it's still debated today, which is, was Philby allowed to run? Yeah. Was he allowed to run? Was he even encouraged to run? Or did he just escape from a kind of hapless Nicholas Elliott? I mean, there are so many interesting elements to this story. It is worth unpicking because it is one of the big ones in the Philby story.

30:11I mean, it's worth saying when they learn in America, you can imagine FBI, Hoover are furious. You know, the Brits have let them get away. Angleton at the CIA, James Jesus Angleton, his friend is is shell-shocked the fbi had been informed of that initial confession and these contacts going on but angleton is absolutely furious and you know we're going to look at the angleton legacy in in our bonus series on mole hunts and the philby legacy so do you sign up for the club for that because angleton's going to burn all the memos at this point of his meetings with Philby because it's so bad. But some Americans later say, well, of course he ran. That's what we'd expect someone to do in this situation.

30:53That's what spies do when you confront them. Why didn't MI6 think that he was going to run? And the Americans seem a little bit confused about this it's interesting as well because i mean there there are also reports that the americans were spying on him in beirut at this time i mean there are even reports that philby was told by one of his soviet handlers and contacts that there was a cia hit team in beirut i find that a bit implausible implausible yeah believe, I mean, he was worried, Philby, about being followed and that there were Americans around asking questions about him. So, you know, that seems plausible that, you know, maybe Angleton and some of his people were trying to keep tabs on Philby and work out what's he up to? Is he a spy? Is he going to flee? And there are

31:43definitely reports of CIA teams coming into Beirut after he flees looking for him. In Britain, officially, there's just despair, particularly at MI5. But is that really the whole story? I mean, Dick White, head of MI6, tells Nicholas Elliott, what a shame we reopened it. Just trouble. You know, which is a crazy way of describing, you know, what a shame. Should have just kept him on at the Observer. Yeah. I mean, that's basically what he's saying is it would have been better to not go there again with this confrontation. And some of his colleagues are going to think, ah, this is all part of the cunning MI6 master plan that he's actually been sent to Moscow. But of course, implying that MI6 is still running

32:27him into Moscow. Yeah. And you know, the official story, of course, was that MI6, you know, tried to draw him in for immunity and it didn't work and it goes wrong. But there are lots of strange elements to this story. And it's worth just kind of exploring these briefly. I mean, people raise questions of like, why was he not under any kind of surveillance? Why does Elliot leave? Yeah, I do find that odd. What's this talk about Lunn going skiing? Did he really go skiing or didn't he? Some people say he's furious. Other people say he's not as panicked as you might think when he learns Philby has fled and just unpack the skiing pit the idea there would be that lun tells people that he's going skiing to give philby enough time to arrange the exfil with the soviets and so this all kind of

33:17feeds into this question of did mi6 actually confront philby with a view to basically saying to him, best thing for you to do is to just get out of here? Because, of course, there is this dilemma for MI6 all along, which is one thing they don't want is a trial. They do not want this coming out publicly. Because you've had all these spy scandals already. You haven't necessarily, even with a confession, you haven't necessarily got that much evidence in court. But even if you have got a confession, do you want it coming out that this MI6 officer was a spy? I mean, do you want everyone knowing? The guy the foreign secretary cleared a few years ago, oh, he really was a spy? You definitely don't want a trial.

34:06You don't want it public. But what you absolutely do want, if you're MI6, are the additional names that he knows of other Soviet penetrations. And to me, I mean, I don't know what you think, but to me, that would suggest that they didn't want him to run. That the ideal scenario is one where he actually does cooperate, gets immunity, comes back to Britain, lives quietly, and gives them the information that they need and want. That feels like the best case scenario. That is probably the best case scenario for them. I mean, it's interesting because some MI6 officers, and also Philby himself, Philby himself wonders if he'd been allowed, even encouraged, to flee. I mean, so James Hanning's got this very good book on Philby in Beirut,

34:57Love and Deception, and he reports that Elliot later tells someone, many years later, that he'd said to Philby, you've got 24 hours, head start. Now, this is not the official line. And Elliot's been a bit vague on the offer of immunity. He's not actually been that clear about what it is and how good it is. So there is one possibility, which is MI6 basically want to get rid of him. And getting him to Moscow gets him away. No difficult questions about why it's taken so long to find him, who'd covered it up. I think one view, which I think is also plausible, is that the preference would be for a full confession. As you said, that would be the dream outcome, would be Philby tells everything. But if you kind of are saying to him,

35:51give us that, but if you're not going to give us that, go. I mean, it's hard to tell. And I mean, Elliot's role is very complicated. And in later years, kind of people will hint, well, Elliot was playing this game and he was encouraging him to go. And of course, some people think that's quite convenient for Elliot because it almost makes him out to be quite clever. And he was actually all along, he was playing a clever game. Rather than essentially you failed, you got played and you lost Philby. Yeah. And you trusted Philby and he ran out on you. Yeah. So there's a bit where it's almost useful for some people, you know, for Elliot and people to suggest, ah, maybe there was a kind of subtle messaging being sent.

36:34Certainly useful for MI6. Yeah. Because, again, it looks like you're playing, you know, four-dimensional chess as opposed to yet another kind of ineffectual kind of ham-fisted attempt to get this confession that just totally backfires. Yeah. Do you think that it was part of the plan that he might go or that he might be encouraged to flee? What's your take? I veered on this over the years, actually, because at first I thought, I think Elliot just got outplayed. You know, I think he was naive. I think he was the wrong person to send as Philby's friend. He's too emotionally involved. And, you know, Philby knew him too well and was playing him. I do wonder whether the plan was a mix. Whether they were kind of trying to push Philby to see what he would give up.

37:21Yeah. Will he give up names? Will he kind of own up to everything and i think they realize pretty quickly that philby isn't doing that and won't do that and you know he's only going to give a partial confession according to his conscience and so i do wonder at that point whether they go maybe it's better you go and you signal that to him subtly. You know, you go, off you go. The other angle to this, which I find quite interesting, is let's say Philby had totally cooperated. He's devastated after the death of Jackie and his father. And he's a different man. And the nerve that he had in past interrogations is gone. And he confesses to everything and goes back to Britain. If he ends up sitting in front of Arthur Martin at MI5 and he gives up other names.

38:17And if those names happen to be other officers of MI6, you end up with a situation in which MI5 might ransack the service. So if you're Nicholas Elliott, you're thinking a narrow confession and one that we continue to control the information that comes out of that, that's good. If we don't get that, maybe you go. Yeah. Because it's going to create a massive political headache for us back in London. And it's interesting because you bring up Arthur Martin, and there is another theory of why he runs, though. And let's go back to Arthur Martin, our MI5 mole hunter, middle class mole hunter. Throughout the series, you've tagged him as middle class consistently when introducing him. Well, it's a contrast to our upper class

39:07philby there's no posh mole hunters well there might be but not him not him so he'd been supposed to go to beirut of course to confront philby and use the evidence he'd built up and he's annoyed because of course they sent elliot instead he wants philby you know brought to book he's so angry because even the tapes of their interrogation are not good enough because remember they left the window open deliberately or not which drowns out and there's this account where martin screws up his eyes and he pounds his knees with frustration as he listens to the tape because he can't hear it all. And he says it was no contest. He says, you know, by the end of these conversations, Elliot and Philby sounded like two rather tipsy radio announcers, BBC radio announcers, no doubt.

39:55They're warm, classical public school accents discussing the greatest treachery of the 20th century so martin now comes to think about this and think how how did philby react so coolly under pressure how did he come up with his summary of what he was going to say so well and crucially this line which we flagged earlier, Philby opens the door, Elliot standing there, and Philby says, I rather thought it would be you. Which Martin and some others come to think is a sign that Philby knew a mole hunt had closed in on him and that Elliot had come out to interrogate him and that at that moment when he'd been summoned by Peter Lunn to a flat that it wasn't going to be Lunn but it was going to be someone

40:51else to interrogate him so suddenly this for Arthur Martin and others raises a massive question which is just as Burgess and McLean had been tipped off just before McLean's going to be interrogated. Maybe Philby was tipped off too. Did Philby know they were coming for him? Had he had time to prepare? And Martin starts to look at this and he goes, in the past, Philby would have called their bluff of interrogators. And yet Philby confesses, or at least partially confesses. Why does he do that when he doesn't you know he doesn't know about the new evidence this isn't how he's acted before this is out of character you know he seemed to have the answers already for the confrontation the papers he hands

41:35over he's written those very well and very kind of carefully when he's only had 24 hours to think what he's gonna confess so suddenly there is this, what if there is another mole who tipped off Philby? And that thought is going to be a small thought, massive consequences inside British intelligence. I mean, because they will start to think, these mole hunters, well, who knew about the plan to tip off Philby? Very few people knew about it, about this plan. But amongst the people are the head and deputy head of MI5, his own bosses. And so suddenly he's thinking, hang on a sec, are they, could they be traded? And this leads Arthur Martin and another chap called peter wright who's going to work with him to spin out of control into this mole hunt and this question of

42:32of who tipped off philby because they think there was a tip off i mean that doesn't necessarily have to be for this confrontation and you know that's another theme of this mole hunt series we're doing because you know peter wright arthur mart Martin are going to kind of dig deep into this. And it's interesting. One of the interviews we've got in this series for our club members is with a very interesting person who ghost wrote Peter Wright's book, Spycatcher, which is all about the mole hunts that come out of philby and the guy who ghost wrote this book is paul greengrass who is best known as a very successful hollywood film director who did born films the born films united 93 and others but who actually was originally a journalist

43:18working with peter wright on this question of the mole hunts that come out of philby and this question of whether philby had been tipped off in beirut in 63 so you know all of that spins out of control that's you know something that club members will be able to listen to so do sign up for that but yeah the impact of this is just enormous so philby's gone and this information on this kind of leaks out slowly. Yeah. Yeah. Because, you know, word gets around he's not in town. There's a brief statement from the foreign secretary that, yes, you know, Philby has gone missing. He was a mid-ranking civil servant until 1951. And since then he's had no access to any information. So, you know, no one still knows he's worked for mi6 so the secret of how serious this is is actually kept even though he's disappeared from beirut there's a

44:11damage assessment done within mi6 which is you know at this point now he's fled which of course has never been made public but which i i know people who who know what's in it and who say it is unbelievable the damage damage assessment by Philby. You can't even imagine. I mean, he was head of station in Washington. Yeah. So, yeah. What hasn't he compromised? It's a better question. But all of this at first is contained within MI6, and it's going to have this psychological impact. I mean, Stuart Mingus, the wartime head of MI6, on whose watch Philby had recruited, you know, is haunted by this. Because at one point, his son-in-law moves in to stay with Mingus. And the thin walls reveal Mingus is suffering from nightmares.

44:57And he has a recurrent theme in these nightmares, which is that there's a Russian defector who's taken up in a helicopter over the English Channel and given the choice, talk about Philby or be chucked out of the helicopter without a parachute. And they always have to chuck him out. And he wakes up screaming. That is a very specific nightmare. It's a very specific nightmare. But, you know, this is the start of Philby haunting British intelligence. But it only comes out for the public. Kind of 1967, you get the first stories. Four years later. How serious this was when the Sunday Times and the Observer kind of raced to tell the truth that actually Kim Philby was not a mid-ranking civil servant, but was an MI6 officer

45:42and had been head of station in Washington, shockingly head of Soviet counterintelligence during the war. And so, you know, at this moment, it starts to ripple out from MI6 and into the wider popular culture. Yeah. And, you know, we've been talking, I think, a lot in the series about class and the kind of sense of class superiority and camaraderie that made it very hard for people like Nicholas Elliott to kind of see Philby for what he was. And I mean, it kind of the Philby story ripples out into this conversation that's going on in Britain at the time about class. And the establishment. And this phrase comes about, partly because of Philby, of the establishment who kind of look after themselves.

46:36Is that the upper class? It's more than the upper class. It's, you know, it's the people from the right schools, people in the civil service, people at the top of their institutions, and who look after each other. And, you know, to some people in the kind of counterculture, which is challenging the establishment, Philby is almost a hero. And it's interesting, but, you know, George Blake, who's another traitor inside MI6, he doesn't cut as deep because he was not one of us. He was not one of the establishment, even though he betrays, you know, MI6. But Philby was one of us and there's this interesting line blake was a foreigner because he had a kind of foreign background but philby an aggressive upper class enemy was of our blood and hunted with our pack

47:16now the person who wrote that was john le carre you know and and you can see in the carry you know the influence of of feeling like someone from within the walls of the establishment and in mi6 have betrayed and le carré i think becomes obsessed with this idea of deceit and betrayal exemplified by philby yeah well and uh bill hayden who is the mole. Spoiler alert. Oops. Maybe we'll bleep. Becky can bleep that out. Bill Hayden, who's the mole in Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy, is an upper class, posh, public school boy. Hiding his anti-Americanism. Hiding his anti-Americanism and sleeping with Smiley's wife. Yeah. I mean, it's very, it's Philby. Yeah, it is Philby. And so I think, you know, this point when Philby, the Philby story starts to go public, 67, 68, is when it really starts to have an impact on popular culture and on, you know, on novels and thrillers.

48:21And that's another one of our bonus episodes, isn't it, is looking at the impact of these mole hunts on thrillers. But yes, I mean, Philby's impact begins to be enormous from that point in the public mind, I think, from the late 60s. But what of Philby himself? What lies in store for him in Moscow? Will there be a reunion with Guy Burgess? I certainly hope so. Are Kim Philby's spying days really over? And is there an even deeper secret at the heart of the story? Hello, Goldhanger History listeners. This is Marina Hyde and Richard Osman from The Rest Is Entertainment. Hello, everybody. Every Thursday and Friday, we are reacting to the pop culture phenomenon that is the celebrity traitors. We'll be on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts.

49:15And Marina and I are digging into all the castles' twists and turns, giving our expert opinion on what should happen next. Now, which historical figure do we think would be the greatest traitor? It's tempting to think of an actual traitor. Yeah. A Guy Fawkes or a Kim Philby. But then all of those are traitors who got caught. Philby had a great run though. He did have a great run. I think he could probably see off, you know, Joanne. Yes, maybe. And probably sort of where he ended up in Moscow is probably roughly like where the contestants have to spend every night as well. So maybe there's some sort of equivalent. So if you're watching Celebrity Traitors, don't forget to tune in to our reaction episodes

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