Kara Swisher Says the #1 Longevity Tool Isn't Sleep, Food, or Exercise | Project Swagger with Robin Arzón

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1:27with zero booking fees, no contracts, and no BS. More than 1,000 businesses join InGen every month. Join them and get $500 when your business signs up and starts traveling at InGen.com slash Vox. Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. We're off today. We have something special in the feed for you. Today, we're sharing a conversation I had with Robin Arzon on her podcast, Project Swagger, recorded while I was in Cannes. Robin is a force in fitness and wellness, and she's well-known as Peloton's VP of fitness programming and head instructor. Project Swagger is about how to add years to your life and life and vitality to those years. I joined her to discuss why I dug into the

2:16longevity industry for my CNN show, Kara Swisher Wants to Live Forever. We cover everything from red light therapy to hyperbaric chambers, and we get into what's overhyped, what costs too much, and what all of us should actually be doing to live longer and healthier. Enjoy the conversation and be sure to check out new episodes of Project Swagger every Tuesday on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. Tara Swisher, welcome to Project Swagger. Thank you for being here, making your way through Cannes. I know, I'm sweating just for you. We're sweating and we're going to talk about longevity, so maybe it's apropos. Let's talk about your most consistent daily habit. Well, now it's walking. I know it sounds crazy, but there's a lot of, well, I did this series for CNN.

2:59Yes, we'll talk about that. And one of the things that I was trying to do was show how regular people cannot overthink exercise, although exercise, as you know, is critically important, but sort of the small movements they can make to move towards that. And one of them is always moving after you eat, like in some walk fashion. It doesn't have to be really fast. It doesn't have to be sweaty, just to get your body going. Are you tracking it? Like, are you a step count person? Not really. I just, no, because I don't know. What does 10,000 steps mean? Like, you know, I don't think it means anything. And I think one of the things I've been fighting against is sort of the obsession with data. And I think it's too

3:33much, like, especially men, I hate to say it, they like tell you, and it's like, it doesn't have any meaning whatsoever on people's lives. Now, some of it's yes, absolutely getting moving, moving your heart rate, the heart rate, like VO2 max, I think is important. It's something they, absolutely getting moving, moving your heart rate. A heart rate like VO2 max, I think, is important. It's something they do at Peloton a lot, up and down. The scale, I think, is really important. But I think in general, we over-index on data and not enough about the actual acts we can do individually through the day that are manageable for people. And like trading intuition for these data points? Well, I said so much intuition is that like they basically sell your health back to you

4:07in a lot of ways that is just not helpful for most people in general. And so I really would, you know, this idea that you have to buy everything is really a problem for me. And so I was trying to find things that are happening both scientifically, which are groundbreaking and at the same time, some of the stuff on social media that's nonsense, that just doesn't really help you at all. And a lot of it actually is quite dangerous. Okay, so what's the biggest red herring or BS thing? Little ones. It's how much things do for you. Like red light, it's fine. It's fine. But it does not solve every problem. It's literally like it's going to solve every problem known to man. And most of the data on it is skimp.

4:48One thing that I think is dangerous is this push towards hyperbaric chambers for regular people. If you don't have the bends or have a wound, you really shouldn't do it. But they sell it for hundreds of dollars a session. Yes, in New York City, it's like $300. If you have a little oxygen, a lot more is right. It just doesn't, it's like not true. It's just, there's just very little scientific evidence. I call it majoring in the minors. It's like if you haven't cleaned up the basics of sleep and hydration and movement, who cares if your red eye mask works or not? Absolutely perfectly. Like it's, some of it's just obsession and sort of making you think that you're making, it's productivity, it's action obsession and sort of making you think that you're making...it's productivity, it's action

5:27versus productivity. And I think there's a lot of activity versus productivity. The other one that I think drives me crazy is this peptide craze. Now, GLP-1s are really interesting and they're showing incredible promise. And look, one in eight people in the United States, for example, are using these. There's all these issues, these things around cancer, all this interesting stuff happening. At the same time, there's this whole craze of taking all the peptides and doing it with, you know, off the shelf stuff that they get. And a lot of it is from China. It is unclear how clean it is or how pure or anything else. And people injecting themselves. It's very dangerous. But that's like, there's nothing, you know this, there's nothing new to the exercise craze every five minutes. There's a new, the vest with electricity.

6:10Riding a bike is good, but the vest that zap you, it's no different from that thing that shook your butt. Well, there's always going to be a new fitness trend around the corner, but let's talk, a lot of these things that you just mentioned, you talk about and you dive deeper into on your show on CNN. Kara Swisher wants to live forever. Is that true? Do you in fact wanna live forever? Okay. No, no, no, no. Because of the, there was a couple things. One was all these social media, all the social media stuff that was full of shit that was hurting people and costing people and was dangerous. You know, take this, do this. By people who are non-experts, that was driving me nuts. And then there was all this amazing, at the same time,

6:50scientific progress being made because of technology, because of AI, all kinds of things around cancer research and things like that. The possibilities are huge. Hasn't happened, right? It's moving in that direction. Gene folding, CRISPR, all this stuff that's becoming really interesting around drug discovery, the ability someday some of these mRNA technologies which are astonishing, which at the same time on social media are being demonized by the top levels of our government which is really dangerous. And so there's all this great information and it gets messed up with the bad information and when there's false and true information the true becomes false. Absolutely. So that's that was the I wanted to show what actual scientists are up to that aren't getting

7:33their funding cut by the Trump administration and then also about what you what are the smaller things you could do that you don't have to buy back from the industry which I think it's nothing wrong with making a dollar out of helping people exercise. That's not my issue. It's the nonsense and the overspend and the hopes that you put into people about long life. And that's really was my goal because our health span and our lifespan are like this. Okay. That's what I was going to ask that. So what's the distinction for you? Health span is how healthy you are and fit you are. Because a lot of our, I think in the United States, at least, I don't know what it is here, is 64. And our lifespan is 79, mostly because of men.

8:15Men die quicker than women. But you have this gulf of sickness that you are in that doesn't need to happen. You can be well up until you're deaf, essentially. And so collapsing that lifespan, healthspan, there's a lot of things you could do in your 20s, in your 30s, in your 40s, balance, exercise, walking, all kinds of things that it's like putting $20 in the bank and then later being able to yield it. But in our country, in the United States, compared to, say, France or other countries, we spend $15,000 per person on health care. And they spend six, seven in peer countries. And we have the worst health outcomes, obesity, all manner of cancers, all manner of this and that. So I was trying to sort of like, how do you collapse that and save us money and give people better lives until they die.

9:05Also injecting the longevity conversation with what's missing, I think, is the vitality piece. Correct. Yeah. Is what are you going to do with those extra 10 or 15 years? Yeah. Mobility, like, you know, the ability to move around. And so I was looking at robotics, all this exoskeletons, there's all these manner of things. And eventually they'll print your liver again. Like that's where, I mean, you can imagine it, you can do it. It's all these manner of things. And eventually they'll print your liver again. Like that's where, I mean, you can imagine it. You can do it. It's just how do you get from there to here to try to solve? Like there is no cure for death. There is no, I mean, death is undefeated

9:36so far in world history. And so how do we get there and remain relatively healthy until the final year? Absolutely. Which would be amazing. get there and remain relatively healthy until the final year. Absolutely. Which would be amazing. Support for the show comes from InGen. Running a small business means every dollar has to work hard. But if your team is still booking travel the old way, it's costing you more than you think. InGen is the fastest growing travel and spend platform in the country, built specifically for businesses like yours. Book a trip in as little as two and a half minutes, earn up to 10% back on hotels. And in 2025, InGen customers save more than $300 million on travel with zero booking fees, no contracts, and no BS. More than 1,000 businesses join Engine every month.

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11:21It's time to get Brex AF. Learn more at brex.com slash AF. What's something that you adopted since doing your CNN show? Something that's interesting, I was just noticing. So now, because of GLP-1s and a number of things, like processed foods are down. This is the only thing I agree with RFK Jr. on. Well, no shit, shit Sherlock about Doritos. We all understand that, including the deleterious effects on our body. Not just that they're bad for you, they're really quite bad for you. But the rise in cottage cheese, for example, is really interesting, right? Cottage cheese, fermented foods. I drink kefir every morning. I don't like yogurt. Yogurt is another thing you can have, you know, for microbiome. Like fermented foods are absolutely true, but you may not want

12:11sauerkraut. It's got a lot of salt in it, like that kind of thing. So I drink kefir every morning with, you know, some, maybe a tiny bit of honey or sweetener of some sort, not too much. And then I, I try to keep sort of a nice protein during the day. It doesn't have to be a meat protein, but lentils, you can have an avocado. I've changed my diet in that regard. Do you have, I just recently released a plant-based cookbook. Do you incorporate more plant-based foods? Absolutely, 100%. I think it's, the more you can lean towards it. I mean, I get that people, I happen to like meat, but that's because it's an acquired taste over, you know, a whole lifetime, essentially. But lean meats, like this whole protein maxing thing with men is really,

12:53it's actually more men. Now women are doing it, right? Too much. That's what happens with social media. You've got to get this many. And when you can get it from plant-based, from lentils, from, you know, lentils. There's all manner of things that have a lot of both fiber and protein. That's the magic combo. You know, it's of course easier for meat, but it's not necessarily the only way to go. And what would you say is the most underutilized wellness tool that, you know, could be massively adopted? Well, there's two things. One is don't be poor. I mean, I know it sounds crazy, but poverty is so closely equated with earlier death, like forever, since forever. That's not a new thing. But being wealthy or having money does

13:35help an enormous amount. I had an argument with one of these billionaires where he was like, well, everyone can get a good night's sleep. I'm like, everyone can't, that kind kind of stuff. So obviously good sleep, you don't have to have as much as people think. It's not eight hours. It's 6.5 to 7.4, I think, of good sleep. Like where you're not, like one of the things people, they think they need to go to sleep right away. Actually going to sleep right away is not as good for you as drifting off to sleep. And drifting is what, like 10 to 12 minutes? 10 to 12 minutes, right? Not instant. And the same thing is insomnia is a problem, too. So good sleep, I would say. These are the little things.

14:15Obviously, diet, like you were just talking about, a much more plant-based diet, but with plenty of protein fiber and less sugar. Yeah, and micronutrients. Micronutrients, especially kefir, those kind of things, fermented foods. But the most important thing you can do is friends and family. I know it sounds crazy, but all the scientific evidence points to social connections, friends and family. Don't have a chatbot boyfriend, that kind of stuff. Like, no, but people, that's it. People laugh about it, but it's a crazy, I mean, it's very typical. But people are moving into these synthetic relationships that are very bad for us, health-wise, from a mental, mental-wise and health-wise are really bad because they're, they're seamless relationships with no friction

14:59whatsoever. So social connections, encounters with people you don't know every day. On the way here, the reason I was late was because I talk, everyone stops me, I talk to them. Like it's one of these silly things you can do for yourself. Have an encounter with a barista, have an encounter with the clerk, have an encounter with someone you've never met. They're all incredibly good for your mental state. And one thing my son does naturally is whenever he sees someone, he goes, how is your day going? Watch someone. Do it for a week and watch what people do. They go like this. And a job like yours has enormous social implications. You're constantly interacting with people. And I think in this digital age, it's something I've been chronicling for years.

15:43It is so deleterious to our health. I mean, it can be helpful in a lot of ways. But at the same time, the constant strolling, not just doom scrolling, just scrolling, it's so bad for our psyche to be isolated. And that's number one, social connections. What's something that you've stopped doing through this wellness lens? Sugar. I'm trying. That's my, you know, I don't eat a lot of sugar, but it's hidden all over the place. Processed foods, for sure. Like Greek yogurt I eat versus the right kind of yogurt, for example. I don't like yogurt as much as kefir, so kefir is just easy. It's an easy fix for me. I happen to like it. But stop seeing all the hidden stuff in foods. Try to, you know, I'd recommend Michael Pollan's book, Eat Food, Mostly Plants, Not Too Much, right? That kind of

16:36stuff. Eating on a regular basis, I would say. Trying to sleep more. I don't get enough sleep. What are young parents supposed to do given this list, right? Because I can imagine a listener being like, okay, great, Kara, I got it. How the hell do I fit it all in? Don't like immediately get on the phone when they put the kids to bed. Don't give the kids a habit of using your phones. It's happening all over the country. I mean, look at schools right now. They're pulling phones out of schools. There's nothing worse for kids for their health than to be constantly on their phones. I mean, it creates a lifetime of schools. There's nothing worse for kids for their health than to be constantly on their phones. I mean, it creates a lifetime of isolation. And the problem is parents are as

17:09addicted as their kids. I think the worst thing we can do is, you know, delve into this digital world in a way that's significant, that creates lack of connections between people are the answer to people. And for young parents, go to sleep, right, when your kids do. Like, try to get, or at least one of you get the sleep. Kids aren't up 24 hours. They do go to sleep, you know, not always. So you have two older sons. By the way, having kids is great for you, too. Like, you talk about stuff. I mean, they have infused, I have a five-year-old and a three-year-old, and they've infused my life with so much joy. But it's tiring. And it's chaotic and exhausting. Which is actually good for you. Yes, yes. It doesn't mean you have to have kids. I don't regret it one bit. But you

17:49have two older, you have kids on either end of the spectrum. You have young kids and you have young adults. And what are you telling the young adults about the job market and AI? Well, it's interesting because both my kids have jobs that are actually a little AI proof. My son is a cook. And so that's very hard. There's not going to be a robotic cook anytime soon. And so he's working in a restaurant right now. He's working on a political campaign because I want him to be engaged. But this is a friend of ours is running. And maybe he'll go into that. But he does door to door, door knocking. I know it sounds, but he's really friendly. And so he's really good at this. And he cooks. And so he's in a kitchen.

18:23There's community. My other son is a techie. And he goes to University of Michigan. And so he's really good at this. And he cooks. And so he's in a kitchen. There's community. My other son is a techie. And he goes to University of Michigan. And he's working in mechanical engineering. So one of the things he's doing is doing stuff by hand. So it's very much, it's not as easy. AI is actually additive to his job versus subtractive. He did not go into computer programming because he saw very early that AI would be replacing software engineering. And the seven and five-year-old don't have to work at least for another year. But I keep them off the screens as much as I can. I really do. You know, not like, like they watch Frozen. There's just no way around it. And I watch

19:02television. It didn't hurt me that much, that kind of stuff. But I try not to use it as a babysitter as much as I can. And I think all parents know that. They know what they're doing. They need a minute and a break. And that's OK. Totally. And where do you think, to combat the loneliness epidemic, where is the average person finding community if they're no longer part of the bowling league? Right. Well, they should be part of the bowling league. Like, you know, but you could be part, like one of the things when I started covering online early, one of the first groups of people I met were quilters who met online on AOL and they'd become friends. And I don't, that's a friendship. And they, and then they met together to talk in person. And so it was the perfect

19:43mix of online and offline as they had these offline relationships and online relationships. And I remember being so struck by that because a lot of these people couldn't find other people. I mean, people can you find that like quilting in your own community? And so I thought that was actually a useful use of online. And I think one of the things that's important is to try to mix things up in your life. I just recently, I mean, it's a big trend right now, but this was about a year ago, I just organized a group of a teacher to teach us how to play Mahjong because it was starting to get popular. But I invited 16 people who knew me, but they didn't know each other. And everyone afterward was like, that was fun. It wasn't Mahjong. Mahjong is fun, but that's not why it was fun.

20:26Right. It was the group. And it sounds dumb, but everyone came to me and were like, I feel better. And you actually physically do. Like if you actually tested people right then, not that you should, who cares, but you know it. Most humans know this. What are you most excited about right now? Like personally, professionally? I think probably trying to stay healthier longer. I have four kids. I want to be there to meet my grandchildren, to be cogent and everything like that. And so it's really important to me, and it's a motivator. But I do think we have to sort of get away from this sort of dunking culture that sort of is representative of the last 10 years of the Trump administration. It's all about besting people and beating them. It's never about lifting each

21:10other up. And I think that's getting away, like the Pope, and I'm not religious, but he just gave a speech, which he said, enough of the bullying, enough of the pushing around, enough of the dunking. And the word in Italian is basta. My family's Italian. And I thought, yeah, fucking basta. I think that's the mic drop. But more Peloton. I love Peloton. I have my Peloton. I love my Peloton. Well, a lot of what you're saying, you know, the- But I like going to Peloton. I don't like doing it by myself at home. Interesting. Well, I see all the time the people who are connected virtually on the leaderboard, and again, they'll have tags like knitters of Peloton, quilters of Peloton, and then they will meet up in London or in New York City or in their local, you know, retail space.

21:55And it makes me so incredibly happy. I think my name is not the leaderboard or something like that. I actually like being in person. Well, you're always welcome in person. I'm going to be in the back row. Okay. With your glasses on? Yeah, I'm in the back row, way back row hiding. The leader always finds me. Like you in the back row with the glasses, I'm like. Just cover up. Are you lifting weights? Yes, I am. That's the other thing. For old people who are older, and I am older, is weightlifting is really important. Not excessive. Like weightlifting, stretching. If you notice all these stretch labs all of a sudden. I like it just because it's if it's going to ritualize it for you. Ritualize it but definitely strength training is

22:36the most important thing anyone over the age of 40 should be doing on some level and guided correctly initially so at least you know because I go to the gym and I have a trainer. I really do because I do know I'll mess it up. And it's worth the money for me to do that. But I do learn when I'm away what to do and what not to do. But one of the things that drives me crazy is watching people lift wrong. I know. It pains me. And also working to, I started running again on a treadmill. Love that. Which I love, actually. And it was, I really got back to that. And it's one of those meditative states. I'm not a good meditator, so you should meditate, but I can't. I run instead. One should. It's good for you.

23:18Do as I say, not as I do. Well, it's 100% good for you. There's no question. But it's like a lot, some things I just can't do it. You got to know yourself well enough to know where you're going to put your energy into. Well, thank you for putting your energy into Project Swagger. I'm so grateful for you. Thanks for your leadership. I love the Mahjong group. Do y'all play Mahjong? Spill the tea. Is this, do I need to get on the Mahjong train? And I know like there are like lots of cultures that have been doing this for a really long time. Do I? Can I come in? Can y'all teach me Mahjong, please? So down, so down. That and knitting are kind of on my short list of activities just as important as your workout, nutrition, and sleep routine.

24:08Let's take that into our weeks. In the next episode, y'all know I am training for my 28th marathon, so I am sharing the 10 rules I never break. These rules will level up any fitness routine, whether you are training for a marathon, a 5K, or just life. That is out Tuesday, July 5K, or just life. That is out Tuesday, July 28th. See you soon. Support for the show comes from InGen. Running a small business means every dollar has to work hard. But if your team is still booking travel the old way, it's costing you more than you think. InGen is the fastest growing travel and spend platform in the country, built specifically for businesses like yours. Book a trip in as little as two and a half minutes.

24:49Earn up to 10% back on hotels. And in 2025, InGen customers save more than $300 million on travel, with zero booking fees, no contracts, and no BS. More than 1,000 businesses join InGen every month. Join them and get $500 when your business signs up and starts traveling at InGen.com slash Vox. As soon as autumn rolls around and you swap your iced lattes for pumpkin spice, that's your signal to start thinking about the holidays, the decor, the gifts, the shopping lists, but more importantly, the holiday treats. Cheesecakes, cookies, is there anything better? And when the recipe calls for cream cheese, there's only one option. Philadelphia, the original cream cheese, made with fresh milk and real cream.

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