410. JFK: Blood On The Streets Of Dallas (Part 4)

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2:45Taking ZepFound with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-5979 or visit ZepFound.lily.com. Hello and welcome to Empire with me, Anita Arnand. And we are on the final part of our JFK miniseries. And over the last three episodes, we've been following what has been actually a rollercoaster life for JFK. Sickly second son, never meant to lead, war hero, made half by courage itself, half by his father's publicity machine, a reluctant heir in many ways who climbed through a coma, a democratic convention and the closest election contest of the century and makes it all the way to the White House.

4:06And a president who at the most, I think, dangerous moment in human history kept his nerve and more importantly to all of us, kept the peace. Frederick Logevall, our fabulous guest for all of these episodes, is with us again, Pulitzer Prize winning biographer of JFK. So, I mean, in this episode, Frederick, we are going to talk about that fateful day in Dallas, the wellspring of thousands of theories and alternative theories or conspiracy theories, depending on where you come from, about how John F. Kennedy was killed. But just as a moment in time, those three shots ringing out, how important, how impactful were they in the American psyche? Well, I don't think I can do better than to quote a great historian who figures prominently in my narrative, especially in volume two and

4:45three, because he also served as a Kennedy aide. And that is, of course, Arthur Schlesinger Jr., one of the great historians, I think it's fair to say, of the 20th century in the United States. And I encountered the following quote in his memoirs. He died before he can complete the memoir, so this is volume one. But it's frankly one of the reasons I undertook this Life and Times biography, because Schlesinger wrote as follows. For my generation, four dates remain indelibly scarred on memory. Four occasions when none of us can forget where we were, or where and how we heard the staggering news. Pearl Harbor, the death of Franklin Roosevelt, the death of John F. Kennedy, and the landing of men on the moon, which is a

5:33striking passage, it seems to me. And Kennedy, of course, didn't live to see the landing of the men on the moon, but he started the lunar project. He's responsible for it happening. But the events of Dallas, November 22nd, 1963, is on this list of indelible memories for a whole generation of Americans. And, you know, we touched on something, Frederick, in the last episode, which I think we ought to talk about a bit more because it's important, which is the death of Jack Kennedy and Jackie Kennedy's son, Patrick, because they had their problems in this marriage. But in 1963, it was terrible trauma that brings them together. Tell us a little bit about that. Yes, young Patrick lived just a few days. I think

6:20you're absolutely right, Anita, to say that this was a problematic marriage in some ways. I think they had grown closer even before this. In other words, if you look at it in a kind of longer trajectory, I think the marriage improves in the White House and it improves in the last year. But that terrible, terrible event in August of 1963, you know, they say these kinds of things can either pull people apart or couple apart or bring them closer together. My sense is that it brought them closer together. A friend of mine, Stephen Levingston, is coming out imminently with a book on what happened and what the results of that were. So really look forward to that book. But I think it's, as you say, I think this was something that in this brutal, brutal hour, husband and wife

7:13came closer. Yeah, which means that Jackie had a full buy-in to the autumn of 1963, when the re-election machine is starting to roll. That's right. And, you know, to just anticipate what we're going to be discussing, I think, today, you know, it's one reason why she goes with him on his trip to Texas is because he needs her, he wants her there, and a big part of her wants to be there with him. I think this is a sign of that. Yeah. And, well, I mean, let's talk about Texas, because they have to win Texas. I think this is a sign of that. Yeah. And well, I mean, let's talk about Texas because they have to win Texas. Am I right in saying Kennedy won Texas last time in the last election by the thinnest of margins. So this state is definitely in play.

7:56Yeah. And, you know, one of the things I deal with at length in the second volume is the choice of Lyndon Johnson for that vice presidential slot. And a key consideration for JFK was, of course, that Johnson would help him win Texas, hold much of the South, and that's what happened. So it was an inspired choice to choose Johnson, I argue. But you're absolutely right. In 64, looking ahead to the next year and to the re-election campaign, you want to win Texas again. I think he's pretty comfortable overall in the fall of 1963 in terms of his chances. Nevertheless, you want to take the victories where you can get them, and Texas is going to be key. Yeah. And we should just for a second talk about Lyndon B. Johnson, because he gets a rough

8:43press, I guess, because of the way in which he was crowned king. But what kind of man was he? He was a Texan, which is why it's important to have him on the ticket as a vice presidential candidate. What was he like, and how did their personalities meld? Well, their personalities didn't really meld very much, but I think there was a great deal of mutual respect. Johnson was not treated well, I think it's fair to say, as vice president by the president's staff, including his brother, Robert Kennedy, who did not like Lyndon Johnson, to put it charitably. I think JFK himself treated Johnson with respect. I think he admired Johnson's political skills. He was a master of getting legislation passed.

9:26He understood exactly how to work Washington. And in terms of understanding what would move legislation, nobody was better than Johnson. He was insecure. I think he never thought he really fit into the Kennedy operation, if I can put it that way, with all these Harvard grads and Yale grads. And here he was from San Marcos Teachers College. So I think it was difficult for Johnson. He was also used to being more active. And as you know, Anita, a vice president, often they can never quite figure out what they're supposed to be doing. And the president might not give them a lot of direction. So I think it was a tough three plus years for LBJ. But Kennedy, as I said earlier, was happy that he had tapped him for this role because he helped him win the election.

10:16Dallas, tough crowd in Dallas. I mean, even LBJ, who is a Texan son, son of Texas, has a rough time in Dallas because they think, you know, what are you running with this lily-livered prep boy liberal? I mean, he gets a hard time, doesn't he? That was perfectly put. Yeah, no, he certainly does. You know, and there are people close to Kennedy who say, Mr. President, you shouldn't be going because of the anti-Kennedy animus in Texas. It's going to be a rough crowd to say the least. We're a little bit worried for your security. That's a message he gets from several people close to him. Jackie is not wholly comfortable with the thought of them going to Texas. He feels he needs to go because the Texas Democratic Party is at loggerheads. So you've got powerful

11:07figures in Texas who don't get along. Kennedy says, I've got to have a functioning state party. And so I'm going to go and try to smooth things over between them. I can't have them squabbling as we run for reelection. That would be terrible. And again, he's thinking back to 1960 when he barely won. So he says, we're going, notwithstanding these warnings from people close to him. So it's again, everyone's telling him it's going to be tricky. He's determined to go. But the morning that he is about to leave for Dallas, there are handbills being handed out, which are really a red flag to what's going to happen later on in the day. With his face on it declaring that he's a traitor. Tell us who's putting out these handbills and what kind of impact they're having on the people who have gathered in Dallas to see him arrive.

12:02There are loud voices in Texas from various quarters, right-wing groups who are putting out these flyers, who are taking ads in newspapers, basically saying, as you put it, that John F. Kennedy, or not basically saying, saying that John F. Kennedy is a traitor. So this is appearing both in the press and on the streets where people are handing out this literature. You can see again what people are concerned about Kennedy even going there. And, you know, in hindsight, but to some degree, even before the fact, people smelled trouble and were concerned about what might happen to John F. Kennedy when he arrived. Yeah, I mean, apart from the handbills, you know, which said wanted for treason, there was

12:50this full page that was taken out in the Dallas Morning News. And I should just describe it for people, you know, edged in funeral black. It runs a list of very loaded questions and a really sarcastic welcome and this is what the kennedys are reading over breakfast um i think i mean jackie is said to say we are heading into nut country um you know because it is it's threatening it's threatening to say the least yeah i think at least apocryphally we are told uh and this is something i'm going to try to research get to the bottom of but that as you over breakfast, he's not reading over his speeches that he's going to give. He's not preparing for the meetings that he's going to have. You know, you

13:34have lists of the people he's going to meet that normally a president would be looking at. He is, as you say, reading these papers, reading that particular full-page ad. We don't know, at least I haven't seen yet, what he says about this. But as you say, Jackie is extra worried after she sees this. Yeah, and do we know how he felt about his own safety and security? Did he ever think that he was a target, that he might be killed? I mean, was that in his mind ever? He cheated death in the war. Did he find himself to be immortal? I mean, what was his thinking about this? Well, I think as many people have said, and I certainly endorse this view, he was a fatalist. We can talk about that. I think he had long believed, Anita, that he would not live a long

14:22life. He often said to people, I'm going to live to be 45, which turned out to be a pretty good estimate. He lived to be 46. So where did that come from? Why was he a fatalist? Tell us about that. Well, it's a very good question, and I'm not trained in psychology. It's a mix of the following. Probably something inborn, that is to say, not dependent on circumstances or what he experiences, but I do think his illnesses, which really go back to when he was two and three years old, the fact that he was given last rights, I think three times, but more and more to the point, just this series of illnesses led him to this view. I think that his experience in the war where he saw comrades falling, you know,

15:05left and right, led him to believe that life is capricious and we have to live each day as though it's our last. I think more generally, he was just of the view that we've been given a certain amount of time. I'm going to live mine and I'm not going to worry too much about it. And then finally, I do think he had a kind of personal courage. So he was less inclined to worry about Secret Service protection than other presidents might be. He, I think, felt confident that he would get through the day, whatever might be happening. And I suspect he felt that even this morning. I mean, the fact that he's planning to give and we should come back to this the final speech that he never gets a chance to give which is in part about you know political extremism tells me at least

15:56that he's not somebody who's going to shy away from controversial topics in dallas just because it is this um this nest of uh of of hatred hatred yeah you know what i'm not qualified either but this has never stopped me from uh trying to get somebody's psychology never has never will i i wondered whether this is about him and his brother joe that you know he it should have been him. I'm on borrowed time. I'm living the life that my brother should have been living. I wonder if that's something to do with it. I think, I think it does have something to do with it. You're absolutely right. And also let's not forget Kathleen known as kick, who was his sister, their sister. Um, they formed a kind of golden trio, these kids, Joe Jr., Jack, and Kick. She is killed

16:48in a plane crash in 1948. So by the way, this is both of his closest siblings killed in the air in plane crashes. And it makes it remarkable, it goes to our broader point that when he flew, including all those tens of thousands of miles for the campaign, he never feared. You know how some people are fearful flyers? This guy was never the slightest bit concerned, even though he had lost both Joe Jr. and Kick through airplane accidents. So, I think you're right. I think that it was supposed to be Joe, not me. I'm on borrowed time, etc., etc. Let's go through the fateful day right from the beginning. So it is November the 22nd, 1963. This golden couple arrive in Fort Worth and it is panning it down with rain. But there is a very warm crowd that is

17:49gathered. Just talk us through what happens when they come in and what they're greeted with. It's absolutely right. It's a large, warm crowd braving the elements and giving President Kennedy the kind of welcome that obviously any man, any person would love. And it's off to a fabulous start. It's a short part of the day, obviously, for reasons we'll get to. But that Fort Worth stint or that portion of it could really, from his perspective, not have gone any better than it did. And then they're off, obviously, to Dallas. And the photographs are perfect. It's like a sort of a Hollywood set, if you like. There's Jackie in her strawberry pink Chanel suit, her pillbox hat, and this place, Love Field,

18:37somebody hands her red roses, and she's there, and they're braving the elements, and he's young, and he's vital. I mean, it's very telegenic, very photogenic. It totally is. And I have this idea, which is, you know, there's no proof for this, but I have this idea that, you know, he turns to her and he says, see, we didn't have to worry about this trip. Look at how these people are responding. Or maybe she says that to him or, you know, probably nothing like that happened. But I do think it's, as we're saying, it could not really have gone any better at the start of the day. So there's a limousine waiting for them to take them this 10-mile route at a very slow pace, walking pace. It has a plastic bubble top for the rain, but it isn't bulletproof.

19:23Now, is this unusual it because this is where the conspiracy theories hello why didn't he have a bulletproof car why wasn't there more protection i mean what do we know about the security arrangements that day well so this is after they take a short little plane ride to dallas um they're just a few minutes in the air and when they arrive it's it's as you say uh and it is a plain plastic bubble top um it's just a rain cover it doesn't really offer any protection although i have to say if i'm uh the assassin we'll get to that and i see a bubble top i don't know if it's bulletproof uh you know, I'm just an assassin. And I have a feeling that had that been on, as the Secret Service wanted, it might have dissuaded Kennedy's killer.

20:17But the point is, it doesn't serve that kind of, it wouldn't have served that kind of protection. The weather has cleared. Let's make that obvious here that the president says, well, we don't need this now because we've got a beautiful day here coming in Dallas. The point is it's kept off. It's kept off. What's the plan here? They're going to drive at a walking pace to greet whatever crowds throw at them? Well, he's on his way to the Dallas trademark to give this speech. It's going to be a pretty slow route, which by the way has been printed in the paper that matters. The whole of Dallas knows the route that the motorcade is going to take. And it's exactly that, as you say, that they are now going to proceed fairly slowly. Part of it, they're going to go faster, obviously,

21:13but at a particular moment in time, they will be slowing down. And they are on their way, and he's going to give this speech. Yeah, and we'll come to the speech right at the end, but the crowds are cheering. There are outstretched hands. If you look at the miles of footage that are taken that day. Yeah, I don't see, again, this is a part of the story that I have yet to write, but I've done a lot of research on it. I don't see evidence of this far right venom that exists in the city. Probably there are. In fact, we know there are some protesters, but they're few and far between. And I think it's, as you say, it's something akin to the response he got in Fort Worth at the start of the day. Certain stretches, the crowds are much sparser. I don't mean to suggest that this is a huge outpouring of affection or support, but I think he's feeling good about

22:14the response he's getting even here after they've arrived in Dallas. Yeah. And Nellie Connolly, who works for him, turns around and says, Mr. President, you can't say Dallas doesn't love you. And, and that's tempting fate because it isn't long after that. Yeah. Yeah. It isn't long after that. Well, why don't you pick up and tell us, tell us, tell us what happened as opposed to what people think happened. Well, so, so, um, the motorcade comes underneath the Texas School Book Depository, turns left, which means that the cars slow down, and you get to the plaza. Dealey Plaza. This is Dealey Plaza. And three shots ring out over about six or seven seconds. It seems likely that the first one missed.

23:07The second one struck Kennedy in the back and then exited through his throat, also striking Governor Connolly of Texas. And then it was the third bullet that caused the fatal head wound. And then, as we all know, because we've all seen the images, Jackie instinctively climbs onto the back of the moving car. Secret Service agent Clint Hill, who just passed recently and wrote several books later in his life and did lots of interviews, he gets aboard. And of course, the big race begins to Parkland Hospital, which is just a few minutes away. Let's take a break here. After the break, join us when we talk about what we know and what we don't know about those six seconds and those three shots. Ulcerative colitis and Crohn's disease symptoms?

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26:16Try Atio for free at attio.com. dot com slash empire that's a t t i o dot com slash empire welcome back so it is now half past 12 and three shots have rung out and history has changed it's that moment that any american who was alive and sentient remembers where they were when this happened. And we can now sort of go over this again and again from different perspectives. So just tell us about the footage that was taken and what it tells you and what it should tell us. Abraham Sapruder, who was a dressmaker in Dallas, happened to be filming. He admired Kennedy. He was delighted to be there and have this great angle, he thought, for filming the president passing by and what we get from Sapruder. Arguably the most famous short piece of news footage in history, is about 25, 26 seconds of color photography from a low wall.

27:31He does have actually a very good perspective on the motorcade coming by. And I think one of the reasons why this event lives on, Anita, is because it was captured on film. 100%. It's sort of a perpetual now because it was captured on film. A hundred percent. It's sort of a perpetual now because it lives in our minds. We've seen it. Most of us have seen it. Some of us have seen it many, many times. But can you imagine if Zapruder had been sick that day or had not come? We wouldn't have any of this. So it's hard to overstate the importance of of those few seconds on film by abraham zapruder well i mean apart apart from anything else zapruder's footage captures the terror and fear and agony of jackie kennedy because you see her and because this is as you say i think it's

28:23probably the most studied piece of film in history yeah um 486 frames that have been torn apart and put back together at so many times but you see jackie climbing onto the back of of the moving car you see you know the secret service agent a man called clint hill getting on board and then you you see all of all of that in real time slowed down now for us all to pour over when you have that kind of footage just talk a little bit about the um the theories which you know i'm sure you would describe as conspiracy theories that this abruder tape proves that it wasn't one lee harvey oswald who was up on the sixth floor of a book depository building who fired these shots, but somebody else and a grassy knoll.

29:14Tell us a little bit about how that mythology has sprung out of this. you know, more or less instantly. And, you know, there are various reasons, I think, why the conspiracy theories have become so entrenched, why they are so widely believed, at least as of a few years ago. Most Americans, a majority of Americans believed that there was some kind of conspiracy in the Kennedy murder. I guess the single most cited or most noted part of this relating again to Supruder was the so-called magic bullet theory that he could not have been killed, according to this theory, from the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository because of the trajectory of the fatal bullet. And that is widely believed whole books have been written to disprove the so-called magic

30:08bullet theory. And of course, then there are others who say, well, it's perfectly scientific that the bullet would behave in this way. And therefore, it is consistent with this shot coming from the sixth floor. And that's, it seems to me, in some ways, the heart of the debate. There are other reasons why people latch on to a conspiracy regarding Kennedy's murder. We can get back to those, but I think that's the nub of this. Well, we'll come to Oswald in a moment because he's still at large while this car and this motorcade is now speeding towards Parkland hospital which is only thankfully four minutes away um but it is very very clear jfk has been shot through the throat um he's pronounced dead at

30:52about one o'clock but i mean it is sort of suggested that there was no way he had any signs of life when he reached that hospital even no none at none at all. And so I think that Jackie, that Clint Hill, that others who were in close proximity, they knew. And I'm sure that everybody knew as he was entering the hospital that it was over. And sure enough, it was. Aged 46, John F. Kennedy dead. Do you know the weird thing about this moment is that a priest administers last rites. It's the fourth time a priest has administered last rites to JFK. But this one, this one is final. So, I mean, this is one of those things in America, you cannot be without a commander in chief. So within two hours, while people are still trying to get their

31:45heads around what happens, a new president is sworn in on an aircraft. Now, tell us a little bit about the crowning of the new king. Well, it happens on the aircraft, as you say. And it's Lyndon Johnson, of course, a local federal judge, Sarah Hughes, who I think is still the only woman to swear in an American president. But what's also interesting is that standing beside Johnson is Jackie Kennedy. And she's still in the bloodstained suit. And people wonder, well, why would she not change? Some, I think, contestation about this. But I think the basic reason is that she wanted the world to see what they had done, whoever was the killer. She thought, no, I'm not going to change. I have lost my husband. I want everyone to see, or at least get a sense of what happened here.

32:38I'm not going to change for this. But that begins Lyndon Johnson's presidency right there, just a couple of hours after this tragedy. Let's just talk about that image, because this oath takes place on Air Force One at 2.38 in the afternoon. And you've got Johnson with one hand on the Bible, the other one raised, standing next to Jackie Kennedy, as Frederick quite rightly says, you know, sort of covered in blood. And the look on her face, Frederick, she's there, but she's not there. I mean, it feels like it's a study in trauma. I mean, can you imagine? I can't really fully imagine. Probably neither can you what this would have been like to be in the car at a moment of seeming triumph next to the husband that you've grown closer to.

33:27Yeah, you love again. The sun is shining and people are cheering. It's going so well. And then it's not just an assassination, you know, a bullet through the heart. This is three shots. And the third one, of course, causes extraordinary, shall we say, damage. And she's there to see this happening can we um i mean let me just give a health warning that if people are squeamish but could you possibly give us a an idea of the kind of catastrophic injuries he sustained from at least two of those three shots well i mean it's it's, as far as I know, based on the research I've done so far, it's really the third one that maybe I'm putting it too strongly, but part of his skull is blown off, essentially. I mean, that's why I think everybody who was in proximity of this

34:19when he arrives at Parkland has to think there is no chance here for the president. It's over. So it's really more that third one than it is the second shot, I think, that does this. And the hunt for the killer. I mean, that's over almost before it begins. Tell us about what happens in the minutes and hours after that assassination. Well, what happens is that an officer named J.T. Tippett is killed on 10th Street. And that matters for the reasons I'm about to say, because the fellow who's arrested at the Texas theater after escaping this, he slipped in without paying his admission, is one Lee Harvey Oswald. And it's pretty quick for the police, for investigators to figure out that the fellow who killed Tippett is likely the fellow who also killed the president. That is

35:13to say it's Oswald. And that's how the arrest happens. And according to, let's say, the standard view, Oswald fires the shots from the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. He escapes. He encounters at least a couple people on his way out of the building. He escapes. Short time later, he kills Tippett when he's confronted by Tippett and then escapes into this movie theater where he's then arrested. What is his story and what is his motivation? He is a troubled young man, a bit of a misfit with an inflated sense of his own importance, I guess it's fair to say. He had spent time, interestingly enough, in the Soviet Union, become disenchanted with life in the Soviet Union, but not before taking a Soviet bride, a Russian bride, Marina, and comes back to the United States,

36:16still frustrated, still not fitting in, and comes to believe that he should do something extraordinary to make himself better known and gets wind of the fact that the president is coming to Talos, gets wind of the fact that he's going to be right below where he works. The motorcade is going to go right there. It turns out he's a very good marksman and has this idea that he's going to commit this deed. he's a very good marksman and has this idea that he's going to commit this this this deed and again this is because this is sent a country into shock there are cameras everywhere and everywhere there is a camera you will you will hear him say i am a patsy i didn't do this yeah i mean if you were

37:02somebody this is i guess why conspiracy theories grow because if you were somebody, this is, I guess, why conspiracy theories grow, because if you were a nobody wanting to be a somebody, why would you then say I never did it? It wasn't me. Well, and that's a very large question. And that I think has fueled the belief that either he had no involvement or somebody put him up to this. And it is interesting. I'm keeping my mind open, Anita, about this. Are you? Are you really? Well, in the sense that if even one person urged Lee Harvey Oswald to do this, said, you know, you should think about doing this, or if you do this, I'll support you. If even one person said that to him, it is by one definition a conspiracy.

37:55And we know, for example, that he was in Mexico City a few weeks before the murder, was interested there in meeting with Cuban officials and with Soviet officials. He had an interest in getting permission to visit and perhaps reside in Cuba. Cuban officials, you could argue, would have had motive given the attempts on Castro's life, given Operation Mongoose that we talked about previously. It's not hard to imagine that he could have had encouragement from Cuban officials. We don't know if he did, but that's a theory. I think it's harder for me to imagine that Soviet officials would have encouraged this because there were improvements in Soviet American relations that are important in 1963. That's a little harder, but you can see why people have

38:37really studied this so deeply and wanting to understand what led Oswald to do this. And could there be more to the story? Well, I mean, look, the very reason you've given for the Soviet involvement to be unlikely is what some theorists say is the reason that actually the Soviet hand was involved, because there were some, maybe not in the top cadre of the Soviet Union, who didn't like this coming together with the United States, a great enemy. And so, you know, the Soviet Union with a distinguished history of training up, you know, toy soldiers, winding them up and sending them on their way. So they look as though they're lone wolves, but they're not. No, I think that's actually right. There is not one level of, There's not one opinion among Soviet officials or among others who could be potentially involved. I will say this, based on what I've seen so far, the forensic evidence, Anita, is powerful that Oswald was the person who pulled the trigger. I think that, without evidence to the contrary, it seems to me that that evidence is extremely powerful.

39:49So it's a rule out, grassy knoll guy, he's gone. Oswald is your man, but who sent him? Did he do it on his own or who sent him? Did he do it on his own or did somebody encourage him to do this? That's the part that as I prepare and as I research and as I then write this book, that's the part that I'm keeping. I'm keeping an open mind on all of it. I think that's incumbent upon historians and biographers is to wait until we have as much evidence as we can gather before formering our opinions. So I'm open-minded on all of it, but it seems to me the real question there is his contacts and what he might have been encouraged to do. The other thing we should mention here is that he was on the radar of American intelligence agencies. And

40:34it's pretty clear that they dropped the thread that the that US intelligence agents in the weeks or days, weeks and days prior to the assassination, didn't have a good sense of what Oswald is up to. And that's obviously a source of embarrassment after the murder. Or is it complicity? Hang on a minute. There's another conspiracy. Hang on a minute, Frederick. Wait a minute. Wait just a minute. Because if he's on a watch list, Frederick, first of all, why was he on their watch list? Just remind us why they were meant to be watching him. He's on their watch list, I think principally because he had spent time in the Soviet Union, had extolled the Soviet system, and had denigrated the United States, and he had continued, from their perspective,

41:26suspicious activities after returning to the US. I mean, why is this guy talking about freedom for Havana or, you know, trumpeting the accomplishments of Castro's Cuba, if he's not a problematic figure, somebody we should keep our eye on? Okay, all right. So, I mean, you can see where the conspiracy theories come from. I'm just fascinated that you're saying, look, I haven't made up my mind yet. What would be, and please do forgive the pun, the smoking gun that would convince you that he was a lone wolf or he was operating for someone else? What is it that, you know, when you're researching, Mr. Pulitzer Prize winning historian, what is it that you're looking for that will make you come down on one side or the other? Well, I mean, in the ideal world, we have

42:08tangible evidence, whether in the form of, I don't know, a letter, a document of some kind, some kind of audio tape. After all, we haven't talked much about the Kennedy tapes in the White House, which are an extraordinary resource for historians and biographers. But if Kennedy is taping his meetings, other people can be taping their meetings. So obviously, what we would love to have as biographers is that kind of evidence, either showing that Oswald conspired with somebody in advance of November 22nd, or told people, I'm going to do this, and I got the rifle. I'm a good marksman. He's going to be right under my business window where I work. Failing that, I think, Anita, I'm going to have to use the best circumstantial evidence that I can. And as I say, I think the forensic evidence is powerful for Oswald, extremely powerful

43:09for Oswald as the gunman. And those three shots, it seems to me, could easily have come from, did come, it seems to me, from one weapon within six or seven seconds, somewhere in there. Not at all implausible, as some people have suggested. And the single bullet, the magic bullet theory is not so magical at all. Right. So the real outstanding question for me is, again, what happened in those weeks prior to Dallas. I have not seen evidence. I should be clear, I have not seen evidence for a conspiracy. I just would like to know more. And just before I let you off this particularly uncomfortable hook, do you anticipate that there is some hidden evidence? Because this is one of the most poured over episodes in history,

43:56not just from Americans, from everybody all around the world. It was just such a compelling episode. Are there tapes that you think, I know that they must be out there, or are there documents that you think, oh, I'm pretty sure that somebody will have a record in some place that I need to get hold of? I think it's more likely that we'll never know. I think it's more likely that there will always be questions about what happened on November 22nd, 1963. I just think, I think it's more likely that that kind of evidence would have emerged if it existed. And you can see, I think we should acknowledge that you can see why the conspiracy theories, including on the part of people who are reasonable, who are intelligent, who believe in the importance of carefully weighing evidence,

44:47you can see why those theories would take hold. There were mistakes by the Warren Commission, which is the official body of the government that was formed to investigate what occurred. That commission, I think it's fair to say, made mistakes. I think there is the questions about what actually occurred, obviously, and different theories there. There's Oswald's protestations of innocence that you referred to earlier. And then there's one other thing that I want to mention, which I think is we want to believe that great events must have great causes. So I think it's difficult for us, all of us as human beings, to accept that a misfit, loner, can get in his head that he's going to do this, can pull it off, and that's all there is to it.

45:32This is the most powerful man in the world, at the zenith of his power, being cut down, and it's just Oswald? I think that's hard for us to accept. I mean, you're right. Of course you're right right. I mean, I'm sort of now that you're talking, I'm thinking, you know, Gavrilo Princep, who basically tipped the world into World War I. He was, you know, another opportunist with a gun. I mean, that was more of a conspiracy and more people were involved. But shooting of Gandhi, you know, point blank range, one of the most famous people in the 20th century. But as far as conspiracy theories are concerned, Frederick, I mean, what happens two days later, because as you say, they sort of haul out Oswald, you know, largely they're on his trail because of the murdered police officer from this cinema on the 22nd of November. They keep him, they question

46:20him for a couple of days. It looks like it isn't, shall we say, a gentle questioning, because the man emerges on the 24th of November from the basement of police headquarters. And again, this is live on national television. Everybody wants to see the man who shot the president. And then what happens? Well, what happens is he himself is shot and killed by one nightclub owner named Jack Ruby. Point blank range. This too has fed the theories. Let's put it that way because conspiracy theories automatically has a kind of pejorative sound to it. But it's fed the theories that something else is going on here, that Oswald, if he did in fact do it, he have just been, he must have been a patsy. He must have just been put up to this.

47:07Because why otherwise would you allow, again, some nightclub owner to just walk in and shoot Oswald at point blank, but this is what happens. He dies. He dies at the same hospital as the president. As JFK. But he dies on film like JFK. Can I tell you a really interesting story about that image? Please. There is an image, that moment where Ruby fires and you see Oswald doubling up with pain and it's the bullets going in. The man who took that picture was a photographer who worked for the Dallas Times Herald and his name was Robert H. Jackson. Now, Robert H. Jackson only was able to take that picture because, forgive my French, he fucked up that day. So, it's such a good story. So, he's failed basically twice in two days.

48:07So he's also two days earlier on the route of the Kennedy motorcade. And he's waiting for film so that he can take some pictures as the motorcade sort of rounds the corner towards Dealey Plaza. And whoever it is who's meant to be giving him his his film you know replacement film and they were all those pop bulbs in those times comes a bit late so the cast come past him so he's missed all of that he misses the assassination he gets to you know this this police headquarters where Oswald is about to be taken out and he's sort of you know everybody's like really tense really tense Oswald's coming out Oswald is about to be taken out and he's sort of, you know, everybody's like really tense, really tense. Oswald's coming out, Oswald's coming out. They bring Oswald out. Now, for some reason,

48:48all the cameras go off together as soon as he's brought out. He is unable to get his flashbulb to work just for a second or a nanosecond or, you know, two seconds. I don't know how long it takes to screw this in, but he then gets it and he fires off the shot in the second that he is killed. And it's only because the others are reloading. They haven't, you know, they're not ready to take any kind of picture. They've taken their picture and he's coming to the party late. And so he's that one photographer who takes the picture of Lee Harvey Oswald dying. Isn't that an extraordinary story? I had not heard that story, but man, I'm remembering that story. That's remarkable. I actually have to give props to Dominic Zanbroek. He did a wonderful speech. I loved that story.

49:38Anyway, so then, you know, look, the country stops. The country doesn't know what to do. They've lost a president. They wanted answers. The man who supposedly killed the president is swearing I didn't do it. And then he's killed as well in front of the world's eyes. America has nothing else it wants to talk about or look at. And you've got sort of people like these giants of television, like Walter Cronkite, who has to take his glasses off because he's crying when he tells America that the president is dead. It was such a, I mean, what did it do? Instead of me guessing, you tell me what it right now, friends visiting our, our house. Um, and the fellow, uh, Richard is Canadian. He happened to be telling me last night that when, uh, so in Canada,

50:41in British Columbia, when he was six years old and, uh, he was home from school and he heard his mother crying, uh, which was unusual. And he went to find out what was going on. And she said, the president has been killed. So this is in Canada. Meanwhile, as I may have said in a previous episode, my parents told, I guess I was referring then to the missile crisis, but my parents told me that in Sweden, people were just beside themselves when they learned, again, that the president, you don't even have to say American president in those days, that's how large the United States loomed in the West as the leader of the Western Alliance, the president has been killed. So if it's not universal, it's in all parts of the world that people are feeling completely bereft.

51:26But I do think that obviously for Americans, this was a moment they could never, they could never have imagined. It's not that John F. Kennedy had universal support as we've been discussing lots of opposition to him and his policies in Texas, also in other parts of the United States. He was broadly popular. He had high approval ratings. But I think that even those who didn next to him in an open car, I think was just really difficult for all Americans or all adult Americans, most of them, to stomach. And his body lies in state in the Capitol Rotunda for around 21 hours or something like that. And I think it's estimated a quarter of a million people file past that coffin through the night and the funeral we

52:30should say something about the funeral because it was just full of meaning um the the riderless horse with a pair of boots reversed in the stirrups i mean that that that has deep significance can you tell our listeners what that means that's's an old cavalry tradition. A commander who will never ride again. That's what you do. You put the boots in reverse in the stirrups. And this, by the way, is one of the many ways in which Jackie Kennedy dictates. This is a fascinating part of this whole story, as far as I'm concerned, which I'm eager to write about, the degree to which Jackie decides what's going to happen. And so that's one of her decisions. She did research. She ordered books pulled out of the Library of Congress on Lincoln's funeral a century before, and she adopted or she instructed

53:26that many of those pieces of Lincoln's procession protocol be adopted for this funeral as well. The eternal flame at Arlington was her idea. Again, the riderless horse, she insisted that she would walk behind the casket rather than ride in a she called it a big black cadillac so jackie's imprint on this extraordinary day or days really uh which drew the largest television uh audience in history. It had been the debates between Nixon and Kennedy. Those four had been the largest television history. Now that was, they were surpassed by the audience for the funeral. Yeah. But, you know, for all of Jackie's planning and for all of that imagery, and I'm including things like, you know, heads of state, de Gaulle,

54:24Haile Selassie, Prince Philip representing the Queen, you know heads of state de gaulle highly salasi prince philip representing the queen you know sort of all walking on foot behind this coffin about 90 of them i think yeah i mean an extraordinary show uh of of support from around the world the one image that to me is the most powerful is a little boy saluting his father's coffin on his i mean his third birthday. I mean, that image of John Kennedy Jr. is the thing that speaks loudest, I think, about what happened. I think it's probably, don't you think that's probably the image from that day that has lived on in people's minds the most, don't you think? Yeah, I do. I really do. Okay. So look, I don't want to leave

55:06this with you know what the warren commission did right or did wrong because you you've already said you know they made mistakes and there was there were truths which could have been outed in a brighter light and their failure to do so has sort of led to all of these disparate accounts what might have happened that day can we talk about the speech that was never given? Because actually that is a very important speech. And we do know about it because there was a copy of the speech. Tell us what JFK was going to say at the trademark. Well, I think what's most important for me in that speech was a passage that had to do with political extremism for obvious reasons that given what had just happened to him, that's extraordinary. And I think given

55:54where our world is today, both in the United States and elsewhere, I think it has particular power. Here, if I may, is just a brief passage from the speech that I often give my students. Then we have a discussion about it. I've also used it in various public lectures. Here's what Kennedy would have said. In a world of complex and continuing problems, in a world full of frustrations and irritations, America's leadership must be guided by learning and reason. Or else those who confuse rhetoric with reality and the plausible with the possible will gain popular ascendancy and with their swimmingly swift and simple solutions to every world problem. We cannot expect that everyone will talk sense to the American people, but we can hope that fewer people will listen to this nonsense.

56:49That's part of what the speech he was going to give. Now, there are other parts of the speech. He was going to sound pretty hawkish terms. I think it's fair to say on the Cold War, this wasn't the entirety of the speech, but that passage about learning and reason and not confusing rhetoric with reality carries such immense power, it seems to me. I can't think of a better way of ending this episode. Frederick, thank you so much for your company over all of this miniseries. Really very, very grateful to you. And this is a life that was so full. And one of the things I'm aware that we haven't covered in this miniseries is the space race, which, you know, the huge leaps that were made in JFK's time at the White House.

57:38So what we're going to do, because it's impossible to cover everything in a miniseries, is we're going to put something in the newsletter covering that aspect. But till we meet again, it's impossible to cover everything in a miniseries, is we're going to put something in the newsletter covering that aspect. But till we meet again, it's goodbye from me. Hi, I'm Katie, your friend and jeweler at Shane Company. As a Shane Company jewelry consultant and gift insider, here are my top three engagement ring trends for a magical holiday proposal. Vintage inspired styles with intricate details, bold rings with thicker gold bands, and unique diamond shapes like antique cushion. We have so many beautiful ring styles and diamonds in stock to compare side by side.

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