408. JFK: Nixon, McCarthy, & The Dark Side of Camelot (Part 2)

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3:17And now his father's entire dynastic dream is resting on Jack. Do we have anything from Jack about how he felt at this time, about this great weight of expectation being transferred to his shoulders? I think his brother's death was, as it was for the whole family, deeply traumatizing for Jack, for all their differences, for all the sibling rivalry between these brothers. They were very close. I mean, they had been each other's playmates when they were small and they were at Choate together. They were then at Harvard together. He had lost, in a sense, almost a kind of twin, I think you could say. I do think that because of his longstanding interest in politics and his desire to perhaps to enter public service, the idea of going to law school didn't appeal to him, the idea of entering business I think, is less, it requires less of a transformation in Jack's trajectory.

4:31That's not a good way of putting it. But I think that it came pretty easily to him when his father said, you know, you're now going to bear this particular burden. I think Jack was ready for it. And he doesn't waste any time because it's 1946 when we should look at the 11th district of Massachusetts. Now, first of all, we ought to talk about Massachusetts as a state and the 11th district in particular. For the non-Americans in our listeners, what was Massachusetts like in 1946? It was an important state in the Union. It was the so-called cradle of American democracy. It had a hugely important role in the nation's founding. Boston Tea Party people. Yep. Yes. And by the way, Rose Kennedy insisted that her children

5:19visit all these places when they were small. So she took them around. And Jack, I think among his siblings, Jack in particular was fascinated by this history. But that's Massachusetts. It's also worth noting that it's a high number of Catholics. About half of the electorate in Massachusetts was Catholic. And here we have an Irish Catholic family, the Kennedys. Which doesn't hurt at all. But it is also, I mean, the thing about the 11th district is that it is one of the poorest districts in the entire state. I mean, it may be Catholic. And I just wonder whether this candidate who is a Harvard man with a private income, whose dad is known to be sort of quaffing on champagne. I mean, on paper, he looks to everybody like a carpetbagger. How is he received, though,

6:11by the 11th district? I mean, what's so interesting about the district is that it also includes Harvard. It includes Cambridge. So you have, as you say, a very poor part of the 11th district, but you also have Cambridge, which has not only the university, but it has a very fancy residential area along Brattle Street, which is still true today. It's this interesting mix. I think he is seen by some people, including his competitors for the Democratic nomination. By the way, the only thing that matters here is to get the Democratic nomination. Because once you have that, the general election will go to whoever the Democratic nominee is. It's a highly Democratic district and state. Some people see him as this carpetbagger.

6:54But he shows even now, Anita, as this skinny 29-year-old with no political experience, not a good speaker, he shows a certain connection to see Jack Kennedy in action is to like Jack Kennedy. I think that's evident from his first campaign. Well, I mean, describe how. What does he do and how hard is he working? Well, he's working extremely hard. So that we should note. He's willing to go from early morning until late at night. Again, I don't think his health ailments were as important as some historians have suggested because of what he's able to do. I think there's a kind of natural charisma that he has that is hard to describe, as it often is. Time and again, and we have lots of evidence of this

7:42from the period, from 1946, people would come and say, I don't know anything really about this Jack Kennedy. I heard that he was a war hero. And of course, we all know Joe Kennedy is one of America's richest men. You know, the Kennedys are famous, but they don't know much about the candidate. And yet when they see him, they decide, you know, I like this guy. I'm not sure I'll vote for him, but I like this guy. And I think he builds on that. And then the hard work, his father's money, the associates and the aides that he has with him, all of this contributes to him winning this primary in the 11th district. And then of course, coasting to victory in the fall. Well, but I mean, winning doesn't even begin to cover it because this is actually,

8:26otherwise for the Democrats, a catastrophic year nationally. But Kennedy wins, it's like 69,000 odd votes to 26,000 votes. I mean, it is a massacre. But what I like, and it's something that you quote yourself, is that he's acutely aware of the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune because he says to one of the people working for him, in a year or so, they'll be saying I'm the worst son of a bitch that ever lived. So, you know, he's acutely aware that this is a precarious situation, even though he has this huge mandate. Yeah, I agree. And the quote gives you some insight into Jack Kennedy, which I will confess I find quite appealing, which is that he's a realist. He's able to view his own political standing with a kind of profound detachment. This is true both early on, and it'll be true when he's in the White House. He's an unsentimental analyst of his own political position. And so, and you also see his wit,

9:25his kind of self-deprecating wit come into play here, where he's saying, yeah, in a year. They're going to hate my guts. What I'm absolutely obsessed with is that when he arrives in Washington as this bright young congressman, you know, with shiny face film star looks, there are two other figures who arrive at the same time who I think our listeners may have heard of. Richard Nixon comes in on the same wave. And so does Joe McCarthy of the future McCarthy witch hunts. And they knew each other. I mean, what was the relationship like between them? Well, let's start with Nixon and Kennedy, since they're going to be opposing each other in 1960. Fascinating pair. You know, both veterans of the Pacific War. One grows up on the West Coast, one on the East. One is the son of a,

10:12let's say, struggling grocer. And then Jack Kennedy, by this point, his father is one of America's richest men. And so there's, it's just a really interesting relationship. It's a good relationship. They're actually friendly with each other. Nixon occasionally comes to Jack Kennedy's home for dinners. They interact well in Congress. So that's a fascinating relationship. And then with Joe McCarthy, even more interesting maybe, is that Joe McCarthy is very close with Joe Kennedy. And Joe Kennedy supports McCarthy. Joe McCarthy dates or at least goes on, let's say a date or two with a couple of Jack's sisters. And so there is this connection between two Irish Catholics that will prove later when Joe McCarthy becomes a notorious red baiter,

11:01will prove a complication for Jack Kennedy and in terms of how he's going to respond to the red baiting of Senator McCarthy. But as you say, they come into Washington at the same time. Yeah, sort of this extraordinary intake in 46. But the McCarthy challenge, let's put a pin in that because he has another challenge just a year later because he's um i think it's 1947 he's on a trip to london and collapses dramatically and and a doctor is is called and it looks really grave you know it's like a throwback to his childhood and the doctor tells and we have this from pamela churchill winston churchill's daughter that he well he he says he doesn't have long to live i mean it's that serious yeah no i and and there's

11:46a mystery surrounding this particular episode at least for me i was not able to get a very good handle on what exactly exactly happened but it's exactly as you say knowledgeable people physicians who uh met with jfk um thought this could be the end. And this, of course, is one of three or four times in his life when it looks like the end is nigh. I think it contributes to a certain fatalism in the young Jack Kennedy that, you know what, I don't know if I have long to live here. And therefore, I should make the best of what I have. But you're absolutely right that this was a really difficult moment. It didn't last all that long. He recovers almost as quickly as he's fallen ill. Nobody can quite understand what happened.

12:36But for a few moments there, who knows? It looks like the end. And what it is, I mean, it turns out it's Addison's disease, which hasn't even got a name at this point. It's not even got that name until later, I think. And it's the same, correct me if I'm wrong, because I may be making this up, but isn't this the same thing that killeds, which is where we are now, it's more manageable. It'll become more manageable still in the 1950s. So obviously, in an earlier era for Jane Austen, the remedies, the medications, the treatments were not yet available. But indeed, it's the same basic illness. And did the family just close ranks and hide it? I mean, how, because it's not a good look for a young thrusting congressman

13:29who would be, you know, something bigger to be sickly. They closed ranks, as you say, and they hid it. And in fact, they would continue to hide it. It was, as you say, a bad look, or at least there was a sense, let's not take any chances that we don't have to take. Yes, we can make the argument that it's now treatable, that Jack's life is not in any danger, therefore you should continue to vote for him. But why take the chance? Let's just make sure nobody knows about this. And that ruse is maintained. Keep calm and carry on. And that sort of brings me to this idea of the family enterprise in this, because Joe may be gone, but Bobby Kennedy is still around, and there's still seven other Kennedys and a mother and father, and they do start working like a machine getting

14:17behind Jack, don't they? I mean, tell us a little bit about how that works. They all do, with the exception, of course, of Rosemary, who underwent a disastrous lobotomy at the order of her father right before Pearl Harbor in 1941. Gosh, why? She had developed much more slowly than her siblings. And the parents tried every manner of treatment. As a teenager, was reading at about a third grade level. And we should, I mean, it's a horrible thing that happened and a horrible decision by Joe Kennedy. The only thing I will say is that expert opinion in 1941 told, assured the senior Mr. Kennedy, your daughter will come out of this better than she comes in. This is a revolutionary treatment, the lobotomy. We've had tremendous success with this. In effect,

15:14take our word for this, Mr. Kennedy, you should order this procedure for Rosemary. So he does. I only mentioned that because otherwise this seems to our modern sensibilities. An outrageous, even criminal decision on his part, but he was following medical expertise and she ends up much worse than when she went in. She ends up living in an institution for the rest of her quite long life. That's Rosemary. The rest of them, as you say, are all behind jack's effort even little teddy who's just a kid he's 14 is helping out by running errands for jack as he campaigns for the 11th district and then as he becomes a congressman it is a family affair all the way through it's an interesting time because the kennedys i suppose suppose this is the beginning of Camelot,

16:09because if you've got this entire family, which is on hyperdrive, you know, they have these things called Kennedy teas, where thousands of women are invited to meet the candidate. And it is a little bit like one of those, I don't know, Comic-Con sort of moments where people are screaming and begging to have something signed. There is a fever about the Kennedys that's developing. Oh, no question. And nobody knew how these teas would go, by the way. There was this idea, why don't we try receptions where we can invite, and we do invite, women in Massachusetts to come and meet Jack Kennedy. I think people sensed that he has a certain charisma. He's going to have a special appeal to female voters. That was already evident.

16:50We'd have to be blind not to realize that. I mean, my God. Yeah, but they decide, let's give this a whirl. We'll try this. And it proves, especially in the 1952 race for the Senate, proves, I think, really important in terms of driving support for Jack Kennedy. But what's interesting about these teas is that his mother is centrally involved and speaks at them and also his sisters. So you've got young Kennedy women and the matriarch trying to convince and not having to work very hard, I don't think, to convince female voters in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, please, you know, vote for Jack. And I mean, you mentioned he's, you know, going for it in 1952. He's going after Henry Cabot Lodge, who has history, by the way, with his own grandfather.

17:37I think he beat Honey Fitz, didn't he, for a Senate seat back in 1916. Yeah, that's a very interesting history between the Fitzgeralds and the Lodges. Yeah. So, I mean, this is the year that he's going to do a massive step up politically, but it is incidentally the same year as a plate of asparagus is going to change his life. Shall we? Shall we do it now, Frederick? Let's start with this bit of the story that everyone is totally obsessed with, JFK and Jackie. Take us to that fateful dinner and that limp asparagus. It's in 1952. So he is running, as you say, for the Senate. And a couple, the Bartletts, Charlie Bartlett is a very distinguished journalist in Washington, and his wife, Martha, know both people. They know Jack and they know Jackie. And

18:24they say, who knows which one of them said it to the other, but they say, let's invite them both to dinner because they would be a suitable match for each other. And they do. Who knows how accurate the story is, but I certainly used it. There is a moment during this meal in which a connection is made, maybe sparks even fly, who knows, quietly, but in which a certain plate of asparagus enters into the conversation. And he leans over the green and looks into her boobie eyes. Yes. Oh, this is so good. Almost puts his elbow in the asparagus and decides, you know, actually, I think you're interesting and I think I'd like to be with you. So he leans over and he asks for a date and she says yes. And we should say, actually, we should give Jackie her dues because Jacqueline Bouvier is something very, very special, isn't she?

19:23How old is she and, you know and what kind of family is she from? She is at this point about 20. So she's a young woman and comes from not very wealthy, but a distinguished family and is, of course, Catholic herself, which is key, I think, for the Kennedys. By the way, I should interject here that Joe Kennedy approves of Jackie from day one. In fact, they form a very kind of tight relationship, which I think is interesting. But Jackie is very intelligent, which appeals to Jack. She has interests that he doesn't have, but he admires. She's interested in art. She's interested in culture. She's interested in culture. She's interested in music. She has spent a year in France, so she speaks the language beautifully. A very refined young woman,

20:15well-bred, has gone to elite schools for women. And she's elegant. I mean, you can see why they'd want to put them together on a poster, because they do match each other, sort of, you know, beauty for beauty. And her with her sort of swan neck and elegance and these sort of beautiful eyes. It's so true. I'll just say here, Anita, that if the Kennedys are not the most photographed family in the history of the world, it has to be close. And so, for me as a biographer, endless number of images. In fact, it's really difficult often to choose which one you want to include in your volumes. But when the two of them are together in the photo, it is an extraordinary couple. There's no question about the two of them together. Some of Jack Kennedy's ex-girlfriends have been, well, I mean, you know, very good looking, but not hitting high points on the IQ marks. I mean, that's the remarks of

21:10his friends, you know, and she's completely different. She's well-read and she's clever, but she's also, I mean, there's a quote that you've got in your book. It sort of suggests a fatalism from her. Here was a man who did not want to marry, said Jacqueline Bouvier at the time. Perhaps thinking, and also she says, and there's another quote that you use, which is when she was asked about what she thought the influence this young man would have on her life, she says, profound, perhaps disturbing. Which means that she had a bit of foresight that this was going to be a rough ride. I think she absolutely did. She told girlfriends and others, all men cheat. It's just, it's in their, it's in their, you know, it's, it's what they do. My father cheated on my mother continually.

22:00Jack's father cheated on, on Rose continually. And so I think she was stealing herself for what was to come. And she had a sense of this correctly, as it turned out, from an early point, which is on some level both heartbreaking and, you know, insightful in terms of what it tells about what she expects. I think it still hurts, as it will almost always do, from the day it begins on his part. And it begins before their wedding, which is in 1953. And of course, it continues thereafter. There's a quote from a journalist who was talking about Joe Kennedy, but this could so go for the son as well. Another thing a rich man had, like caviar, it wasn't sex. It was part of the image, his idea of manliness, that actually, you know, whatever the cost may be to Jackie, this was part of what it was to be a man, the JFK.

22:53I think like father, like son in that respect. No question. never understand, at least I can't, is fully why Joe Kennedy not only modeled this kind of behavior, which would have been bad enough, but he in fact kind of goaded his two older sons. He in fact basically dared them to try to match his exploits. And if you can imagine a 15-year-old being told this by his father, it's, yeah, I don't think I'll ever fully understand that. Oh, it's warping. It's warping, but it's so of the time. I mean, just before we go to the break, because we're going to come back with some more politics, but I know some people hate it when you do pap psychology. So let's do some now. I mean, he was close to his mother. He loved his mum. I sort of get the impression out of

23:57all the children, Jack was closest to his mother and he must have seen what the infidelities had done to her, sort of diminishing her, the infidelities had done to her you know sort of diminishing her making her smaller more isolated throughout her life and yet he was happy to do this to the woman he would marry yeah i think that's right i think his i think his relationship with mother was complicated because i think there are times when he doesn't respect her i think when she traveled sometimes by herself to europe for weeks at a time when he was't respect her. I think when she traveled sometimes by herself to Europe for weeks at a time when he was little, I think that hurt him. I think with the fact that she didn't come to visit him

24:31as we were talking about earlier at Chotan elsewhere when he was in the infirmary, that hurt him. And yet at the same time, as you point out, he knows, I think, that he's closer to her in personality. And as you say, he can see what his father's infidelities are doing to Rose. And I think it's hard for him to sort out what that all means. No question. Let's take a break. Hi, everyone. It's Katty Kay here from The Rest Is Politics US. The midterms are almost here. It's the biggest political moment of the year. And Anthony Scaramucci and I will be right there with you making sense of every twist and turn as the results come in. That's right. We're going to be live on YouTube covering the midterms as we get the results.

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27:47Quote truck insurance today in as little as eight minutes at ProgressiveCommercial.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Welcome back. Back to the world of politics now. So he's met the girl, Frederick, but now he needs position too. And as we sort of mentioned, you know, going against Cabot Lodge, there is a family score to settle. I mean, tell me how that plays out. Well, I just loved writing this part of the story. You know, all authors have certain chapters that they found more fun to do than others. This was one of the ones that I really liked to write about, this Senate campaign in 1952, because he's going up against the giant in Henry Cabot Lodge Jr. He really had no business taking on a kind of institution in Massachusetts politics.

28:41And yet he does. And partly, I think there is that history that you alluded to and a desire on Jack's part to take on this luminary in the GOP and see if he can win. And Lodge underestimates his foe, classic political story that he thinks, you know what, I am Henry Cabot Lodge. I don't really need to begin the campaign as early as somebody else might. For this pipsqueak, what's he going to do? Pipsqueak for this person who's, you know, okay, he's got a certain charm. I can see what he's been able to do in winning congressional races, but he's not going to be a problem for me. But I'm a Cabot Lodge. You mentioned the Brahmins. The Cabot Lodges were some of the biggest Brahmins on the block, were they not? Yes, huge. Absolutely.

29:33Actually, he was huge, wasn't he? Henry Cabot Lodge himself was like six foot three or something. I mean, he was a gigantic man. He's straight from central casting in terms of what a distinguished politician should look like. Long generation of Harvard graduates. And as you say, this is old money. This is public service. This is somebody who then interrupted his Senate service to serve in World War II. I mean, the story is just an extraordinary story. Jack Kennedy should have no business taking on, much less beating Henry Cabot Lodge, in a Republican year, by the way. Well, yeah, because, I mean, again, he's done it again. He did it before, didn't he? I mean, he took his Senate seat at a time when the Republicans were

30:24just being destroyed everywhere else in the country. Eisenhower carries the whole of Massachusetts, but Kennedy takes the Senate. It's close, but he does it. And one thing we should underscore here, I think, is that the strategy he adopts in Massachusetts in that Senate campaign is one that he will utilize again, shall we say. Namely, every chance he gets, he comes back from Washington, takes the train off and then takes the overnight train back to Washington. But he spends weekend after weekend after weekend in small towns around Massachusetts meeting with voters, sometimes 10 voters, sometimes 12, sometimes 100. But he does this diligently weekend after weekend. And it's about FaceTime with voters. It's about reaching all parts of the state, something that,

31:17you know, most politicians haven't done. You start earlier than the competition and you work harder than the competition. This is what Jack Kennedy is willing to do and he does. I mean, he wins. And therefore, the wedding a few weeks later in September 1953 really turns into a coronation rather than just the wedding. But it's worth actually saying that he wasn't in good nick at this time because there were people, friends and family around him, who were worried that he would not be able to kneel at the altar or get up because his back was bad by then, wasn't it? All this glad-handing and traveling around and campaigning had taken its toll on his body. It had. I still think that sometimes we exaggerate,

32:00you know, the extent of those ailments. I think shortly before the wedding, he played touch football with his family, which was, as you know, a tradition in the Kennedys to be out there. And so that tells you that, you know, even if he's the quarterback, meaning he just has to throw the ball rather than be in the midst of the action, he's still able to do this. But yeah, there were legitimate concerns that kneeling at the altar for for senator kennedy was going to be too much and there were some contingency thinking is there a way to do this without him doing that and um that's the that's the situation okay so pull it surprise winning author what was the wedding like what do people wear i mean come on spill the tea

32:43we want to know what it was like. It was a high society wedding and Jackie had real reservations about this. She wanted a classy wedding, but she was going to be seeing literally hundreds of people that she had never met before and probably wouldn't meet again. Huge number of photographers. One of the things we should note here, an interesting subtext, is that already now magazine editors and newspaper editors are saying, this is the couple in Washington, young, glamorous Jack Kennedy and his beautiful new bride or bride to be, I guess is when they're thinking about this, Jackie Bouvier. And so, hordes of photographers, journalists, and then a massive wedding, because Joe Kennedy has insisted, he says, I'm going to pay for this.

33:34But in exchange for paying for this extravaganza, we're going to build this up to the nth degree. And it's a beautiful day. Jackie, I think, is nervous throughout because of all that's involved. She's so young. It comes off. It's given front page coverage really all over the country. And it serves at least Joe Kennedy's purposes in that regard beautifully. So one of the details that I love from this wedding, I mean, I love all of it, but one of the details I particularly love is that Jackie wore an ivory silk gown designed by an African-American couturier called Anne Lowe. Now that in itself was, or am I sort of projecting, feels to me like a big deal for a wedding like that to have a, you know, an African-American designer. I think it was a big deal. And she deserves

34:31credit for that. Now there have been suggestions that for all I know may be true. I wasn't able to really get to the bottom of this, that Jackie was not as charitable, shall we say, in acknowledging or in publicizing this fact that an African American woman had designed this. And so, let's just leave it there because I don't know what to make of this suggestion, actually. Well, that doesn't speak well of her at all. That's not good. No. And again, I don't know whether it's true. Okay. And, you know, maybe this is a good moment to say that the archival and other evidence that I have for this biography of John F. Kennedy is absolutely enormous. There are so many materials in so many repositories. but even so, there are certain moments, I guess it's true with any biography, any political life,

35:27where you're left without the supporting material that you would like, and this is one of those instances. It looks as though it might be a short marriage, because it's only a year later that he almost dies again. This man is constantly lurching from near-death experience to near-death experience. Because there's an operation that takes place a year after the wedding, which is a serious one, which almost kills him. Tell us a little bit about what happens in 1954. Yeah, I mean, he's been bothered by a bad back really since returning from the service. And to some extent even before. It turns out that one half of his body is a little shorter than the other half. And you can see this in some photographs. So it causes this kind of

36:10wrenching motion, if you will. But he's in acute pain. He's told of a procedure and medical opinion is divided. Some doctors say, don't do this, Senator. Others say, no, you should do this. I really think we can make this better. His father says, don't do it. This might kill you. I've looked into this. Jack says, I'm going for it. He allegedly says, I'd rather die than continue with the kind of pain that I have. And actually, his father is quite right to be worried about this because this operation puts Jack Kennedy into a coma and it's so serious that he gets given his last rights. He gets given his last rights. Jackie is beside herself with concern. She's chain smoking, chain smoking as she tended to do anyway, but, uh, you know, she may have two

36:58cigarettes going for all I know, uh, but, uh, is beside herself with worry. So is, so are the parents. And yet here he is, as he's done before, miraculously. I'm picturing Jack Kennedy opening his eyes and saying, you know, what's going on? Because he does, he does come back from this, this very close call. And little by little, it takes months, gets a sort of get well card from Richard Nixon and a bouquet of flowers from Nixon, from his colleague, but he comes back from this. Yeah, but he doesn't just come back. I mean, he's actually quite a strange man, because again, you've just stared death in the face again. And he does decide he's going to write another book while he's recovering again. And this book

37:53is about political courage. Why do you think that's subject at that moment? Well, I think I've thought a lot about this. And I speculate about this in the book. More than speculate, I think I have supporting evidence. The fact that he had not taken a strong stand against Joe McCarthy. So we should note here that in 1953 and 54, there's building pressure against Joe McCarthy. And a move by his Senate colleagues to attack Joe McCarthy and ultimately to censure him. Jack, partly for family reasons, partly because of the heavy Catholic vote in Massachusetts, McCarthy has huge numbers of supporters in Massachusetts. So Kennedy says, I don't know if I want to alienate Massachusetts Catholics, but he doesn't take, I think it's fair to say,

38:42a strong stand against McCarthy. Does he say nothing or does he just sort of tacitly approve of what McCarthy, and just to, we should remind people what McCarthy did. McCarthy basically destroyed people's lives. He tried to out anybody who had any leaning towards communism, communists were the enemy of the people, particularly, I mean, we can sort of, if you want to see really good adaptations of what this did to some people working, you know, writers, thinkers, teachers, anybody. You know, there's a brilliant film called Trumbo. I don't know if you've seen it about Dalton Trumbo, who was a screenwriter for Hollywood. I mean, an extraordinary screenwriter. I think even while he was excommunicated and exiled because of McCarthyism,

39:25he wrote Roman Holiday under a different name and Spartacus and Exodus. So this guy was blacklisted, but people blacklisted by McCarthy or thrown in prison by McCarthy because they were suspected of being communists. And they had to, like those Stalin trials, had to denounce friends. So did he just sort of go along with it and say nothing? Or did he just say, oh, well, whatever will be, will be? What did he do? It's a very good summary, by the way, Anita, of McCarthy and McCarthyism. I mean, the only thing worth noting there is that Joe McCarthy really didn't care about communism. He wanted an issue. Somebody said he couldn't tell the difference between Karl Marx and the Marx brothers. In other words, he didn't tell the difference between Karl Marx and the Marx

40:05brothers. In other words, he didn't have a, it wasn't an ideological opposition to this. He saw something he could exploit for personal purposes, that he could demagogue, and he was a very skilled demagogue. Kennedy opposed, to go to your question, Kennedy opposed McCarthy on various issues, including people that McCarthy went after and Senator Kennedy defended. So it's not as though he was completely silent on him. And by the way, most of his Senate colleagues were really no better. They too were unwilling to really push hard against the McCarthy phenomenon. We should note that. But it's also fair to say that Jack played it carefully. He used his illness and the fact that he was hospitalized to avoid really public commentary on McCarthy. And I think one reason

41:02for the book, in addition to a really lifelong interest in democracy and the challenges of democracy, one reason for writing Profiles in Courage was because of this lingering worry he had that he had not been strong enough on McCarthy. I should also note Profiles was a collaborative effort. We have not yet mentioned the name of Ted Sorensen, a hugely important figure in the story of Kennedy's political rise. Ted Sorensen is a progressive from Nebraska, young, you know, still shy of age 30, becomes really the lead assistant, if you will, aid in Senator Kennedy's office and quickly makes himself indispensable to Jack Kennedy. I find this such an interesting relationship. Maybe the most important political relationship between politician and assistant, or as important

41:58as any we've had in American history, certainly in the 20th century. That's how important this collaborative relationship is. Sorensen, you know, ultimately can finish Kennedy's sentences. He knows what he thinks. He knows how he would write. And they joined forces, if you will, on this book, in which Senator Kennedy lays out the themes, but Sorensen drafts much of the interior of this book. So I should say that this book, maybe not surprisingly, goes on to be a bestseller because anything that JFK touches turns to gold at this point in his life. But also, Frederick, he wins a Pulitzer like you. He gets the Pulitzer Prize for biography. Now, it's the Pulitzer Prize. It's just for him, isn't it? I mean, Sorensen, does he get a mention? Pulitzer Prize for-

42:46No. No. It's just for John F. Kennedy. Well, no, he gets a nice mention in the acknowledgements. Well, that's nice. That's nice. But it's not John F. Kennedy with Theodore Sorensen or Kennedy and Sorensen. It's just Jack Kennedy, which, by the way, was standard in that age. I mean, even Winston Churchill, we know, had a team of researchers who often drafted chapters of his books that he would then polish and so on. So, it wasn't unusual for politicians to have, in effect, ghostwriters. But Sorensen did not get the recognition, and this became controversial, something I deal with in the second volume. Yeah. This erupts really as a controversy, who actually wrote the book? Hmm. I think it's also worth saying quickly two other things.

43:35I don't think the book deserved the Pulitzer. There were worthier choices that the jury put forth. Right. And the jury was then overruled by the Pulitzer board, which it has a right to do. The board went its own way and awarded the biography prize to Kennedy. But the other thing that's worth saying, I think, Anita, is that this question of political courage was just so resonant, and it is resonant. I think the book bears rereading. I have assigned portions of it to my students because I think it has a kind of timeless importance. What do you do as a politician if what your constituents want doesn't square with what you think is in the national interest? Oh, buddy, we've got to go to the pub and have that. That is a chat that needs alcohol and time.

44:29I have thoughts. I have many, many thoughts about that. Many, many thoughts. But let's, you know. Let's hit the pub together. Let's just do it. But at this time, I mean, this enormous popularity, the Pulitzer Prize, you know, best-selling author. I mean, he's back again, JFK. And the timing is everything. Because 1956 is going to give him an in where there was never one before. So if I can set the scene, so it's 1956. Adelaide Stevenson is the man who would be president. And before running, he opens the vice presidential seat. Instead of just choosing it, he says, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to do something. I'm not choosing. I'm going to let you choose who you want to be my vice president.

45:19Now, who do you think immediately comes to mind when there is a popularity, basically a beauty pageant? Everybody's just saying Kennedy, Kennedy, Kennedy, Kennedy, Kennedy, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, this decision by Stevenson to, as you say, throw the decision basically to the delegates at the National Convention in Chicago is incredible because it brings drama to what otherwise would be a pretty disultory conclusion to the convention. So you can kind of see why he did it. Because for a few hours, the whole nation is fixated on who's going to be the vice presidential nominee. And Kennedy decides, I'm going to make a run for this. And his brother, Bobby, we haven't really talked about him yet. He and Bobby, over a period of a few hours, try to drum us up as much support as

46:13they can before the vote takes place. And this is a lot of chutzpah because they really are pipsqueaks. I mean, there are people with bigger CVs than them. Yes. You should get this role. And let's note he's a Catholic, which is going to be an issue going forward. But they make a run for it. And for a long time in this vote, it looks like Kennedy's going to win. He's getting high. With each ballot, each round of the balloting, his numbers go up. And he is just short of winning this election when the tide turns. And some party leaders, important players, governors, senators, others decide we can't have Jack Kennedy. He's too young. He's too green. He's too Catholic. And at the last moment, Estes Kefauver from Tennessee gains and ultimately gets the nomination

47:06and becomes Stevenson's running mate. But from Kennedy's perspective, this is perfect because he's become a young national figure where he wasn't before this happened. This is his coming out moment. And yet he's not saddled with blame for the defeat that everybody expects is coming in November and which does come in November. Well, they're crushed, aren't they? And who remembers Kieffer's name? Kieffer's not easy to say and it's impossible to remember. No one knows about Kieffer or indeed Adlai Stevenson. Presumably his grandchildren know about him. Okay. Yeah. Not too many others. Yeah. Okay. So he dodges a bullet, really, by not being on that losing ballot. Doesn't he also give a really very lovely telegenic concession?

47:49Oh, yes, look. The concession speech. Tell me about the concession speech. Go on. It's 152 words. Everybody should run right now to YouTube and find this speech, because it's right there, lasts only a couple of minutes it's extemporaneous he's got a little sheet of paper but he doesn't really refer to it and it's gracious it's classy it's elegant uh and what he does is he he concedes and basically says uh you know let's all rally behind this ticket and i think it's a very important speech. Actually, I suggest it's one of the most important speeches he would ever give as a politician. Oh, really? I'm going to immediately suggest everybody looks this up as soon as this podcast has ended. Would you say this is actually the start of his presidential run?

48:41Weirdly, then. Because if you've got the nation looking at you this is such a an upheaval story and you know for a while it looks like i am spartacus i am spartacus no you're not spartacus right at the end you know there's such drama and momentum in the story and he gets so many column inches and then that speech that this is actually the beginning for him i think it's i think you could certainly make that argument and i hinted along those lines just to give you a sense of this after the convention Stevenson himself writes to Jack and says in effect huge thanks for all you're doing and I'm paraphrasing but you're coming out of this as a star in our party and that's from Stevenson himself the nominee and then he campaigns for Stevenson.

49:27Uh, he's a hit when he's doing so. He gets bigger crowds than anybody, but the two, uh, the two running mates, they get, you know, obviously big crowds, but in terms of anybody else that fall on the democratic side, nobody gets bigger crowds than Jack Kennedy. Um, and then the big moment, Thanksgiving, Hyannis Port, 1956. He and the old man repair after dinner to have a discussion about his political future. And I end the book, volume one, with the decision. Don't throw it away. Actually read what you wrote. The sun fell quiet, then looked up and smiled. Well, Dad, I guess there's only one question left. When do we start? Very powerful indeed. And that is what we are going to be talking about in our next episode.

50:21We're going to take you to 1960, the closest presidential election of the century. A televised debate that changes politics, I would suggest, forever and for all of us. And that old name that you recognise from class of 1946, I'm talking about Richard Nixon. Lots of sweat and some very bright lights. So do join us for that. Frederick Lokewell, once again, thank you very, very much for being with us. And thank you for joining us for the next episode as well. Really grateful to you. I'm so pleased to be with you and I look forward to next time. Brilliant. Until the next time we meet, it's goodbye from me. You know who makes the world go round? It's truckers. Who unites baristas with coffee beans?

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