Talking Dateline: The Orchard

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0:49Yep, even on weekends. That's pretty much all he talks about. In a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash BankGuy. Capital One N.A. member FDIC. Hi, everyone. I'm Blayne Alexander, and today we are talking Dateline. I'm joined by Andrea Canning to discuss her episode, The Orchard. Hi, Andrea. Hey, Blayne. This episode is about the disappearance of a former beauty queen from a small town in Georgia and the decades-long investigation that followed and an absolute surprise ending that I think it's safe to say I didn't see coming. I'm sure a lot of people didn't see that one coming. I agree. But before we get into all of that, if you haven't listened to the episode, of course, you can find it right below this one or you can go stream it

1:40right now on Peacock. Coming up, we'll have more from Andrea's interview with lead investigator Gary Rothwell, who talks about a tip that fell through the cracks. And then later, two of our producers who worked on this episode, senior producer Brad Davis and producer Marissa Meyer, will be back to answer some of your questions from social media. All right, Andrea, let's talk Dateline. Let's talk Dateline. Let's talk Dateline. I first have to say, I watched the episode. I had to watch the ending twice because I, when I tell you I did not see that coming, I was stunned. That was a good one. That really was a good one. Yeah. And it was so long in the making, you know, to even to get there, right? As evidenced by the fact that your appearance changed through the episode. Oh my

2:21goodness. Can we just wipe that from the archives? Like, did we really have to show all that? I'm like, oh. You looked fabulous. I will say every time I go back and look, I'm the same. I look back at old clips of myself. I'm like, oh, what were we doing? And I put myself on TV that way. And you brought up on another Talking Dateline the chunky jewelry, which thankfully was not in this episode. But I have some episodes that, like, I'm wearing these giant necklaces. And I'm like, oh my gosh, like, talk about distracting. But you know what? It was a statement. Did you really do TV in the 2010s if you didn't have a chunky necklace somewhere in some of your archive footage? We all have it. I'm calling it right now. If it comes back in style, I'm not doing it. No. It's not happening.

3:05I mean, I think that's one of the amazing things about Dateline, that we can take a story and follow it for as long as we are able to, right? But let's talk about just how much of a media frenzy was around this case when Tara first disappeared. I mean, Nancy Grace was involved. It was covered on Dateline back when it happened. We saw the clip from the Today Show, like all of the archival footage of this truly was a huge deal when she first went missing. It was, and I think it was like kind of the beginning really of this true crime obsession, right? You know, because we didn't have all the podcasts back then and, you know, Dateline wasn't doing just crime. If a crime story was going to end up on Dateline back then, it had to be big.

3:47Yeah. And that was a big story. It fascinated people because, you know, here you have this beauty queen. She's a teacher. It's small town Georgia. She just up and vanished. So I think it was kind of like, you know, the beginnings of what we see now, right? Like a germ of true crime obsession. Absolutely. That interest, that intense interest. There are so many aspects that were relatable. She's a teacher. She had been a pageant girl, right? I use that term lovingly, but I was a pageant girl. I did it when I was in high school. So I feel like I can say that. Wait, I didn't know that. I did. I did. I did pageants in high school. What pageants were you in? And did you take home the crown? Well, I took home a crown. So the biggest pageant I did was Miss Oklahoma Teen USA

4:35when I was in Oklahoma growing up. That is huge. It was fun. I was a finalist one year and then a semi-finalist another. So it was, but you know what? It was very... Oh my, That's big. It was such a fun experience. I can see though why, for me, it was really fun. My parents were like, yeah, let's try this. Let's go. I had a trainer at the time who, you know, worked with pageant gals and it was really kind of cool to be inside that world for a bit. And then I did some more fun community ones. Things I did not know about Blaine Alexander. Wow. Any beauty tricks that you still take with you today for on air? You know what? I will say that I still post the same way. I took a lot of classes on like how to walk. Your lead leg is supposed to walk off stage.

5:17And when I pose in pictures, I kind of do the same thing. I would say that it was great at building discipline because as I got close to those pageants, I mean, I was working out. I ran track at the time, but I was also working out. When I did ones that had a talent portion, I used to play piano, so piano was my talent. And it was a great experience. It was fun. It also set you up for this career, too, you know, because you have to answer questions. You have to be in front of people. You have to be live, You know, I'm sure. And you're gorgeous and smart. So you're like the perfect person for the pageant world. You're the sweetest. It was – I loved it. So not to go down the path of my childhood things that I tried.

5:58No, I love it. I'm glad that we had this conversation. I think it's cool. It was so – it was fun. It was a lot of fun. We always learn a lot of things about you. So those are my random childhood things as a teen. But I identified with her in that regard, because I know what it takes to prepare for a pageant. And, you know, so thinking about that, there were so many aspects of Tara that were very relatable. So I could see why in so many cases, and then just the mystery of her disappearance, I could see why in so many cases, and then just the mystery of her disappearance, I could see why it grabbed national attention as it did. Let's talk about small town Georgia, Osceola, Georgia. I mean, it doesn't get much more small town than that. It was funny knowing that this was in Georgia. I know that town for sure. Tell me, what did it feel like being down

6:39there? There's just a quirkiness to it. The accent is so great. I love the Southern accent. I don't know. I think there's a different vibe. It's just like a very welcoming, just a lovely, these towns are lovely. It's just a hometown feel that you don't get everywhere. Absolutely. Southern hospitality is real. There you go. Let's talk about Tara's love life. I think that you did such a great job of respectfully threading the needle when talking about that. Because I loved that you first introduced it with her friend saying, oh, I knew that I was going to have to tell my friend's secrets, essentially. And you assured her, like, no, you're being a good friend. This is, you know, there's the best friend, no, you're being a good friend. This is,

7:30you know, there's the best friend bond, but then also, this is much different. You have to help her in this situation. Yeah. I mean, you're trying to solve a murder, right? A disappearance, a murder. And, you know, Tara, while a lot of men's names were mentioned, this was a young woman who's not married, right? What do you do when you're not married and you want to be married? You date and you meet different guys. That's what people do when they're single. And so, but I think when you put it under a microscope and you look at it as though, oh, could this person be a suspect? Then it turns into, wow, there's a lot of guys to look at. But I don't think it was anything super out of the norm. Once people started coming out, there were some people who you could look and say,

8:13oh, it could have been that person. It could have been that person. I mean, people who looked to be viable suspects. Absolutely. And that's what Gary Rothwell, the GBI agent, kept saying. He was like, every time there was another guy, he said, oh, this has to be the one. You know, look at Marcus. Marcus Harper, her ex-boyfriend, I mean, he was under the spotlight for such a long time, and he had nothing to do with this. Take me back to that interview with Marcus, because I thought it was so fascinating to hear from him. What was it like sitting down across from him? I could definitely feel, you know, some tension tension because I think of all he's been through. Imagine that for all those years that you're under a spotlight and then finally your name is cleared, that feeling that you have, right, of people whispering about you and looking at you and did he do it.

9:04I mean, I think it would be hard to just shake that off completely, right? So I think you felt some of that in the interview. Absolutely. You know, there were so many aspects of this case that reminded me of a story that I also did in Georgia. A young woman was killed. Her name was also Tara, Tara Baker. Her ex-boyfriend, I mean, people were ruining his business. I mean, he was really going through it, like having, you know, financial impacts from all of these things that were happening. And I think that you make a great point of living under a cloud of suspicion is one thing. But then when you're in a small town and everybody knows you, everybody sees you. It's almost crushing. Yes. Yeah. And I've interviewed many men like Marcus over the years who were, you know, they were the boyfriend or they were the suspect and they didn't do it.

9:51But once they're excluded from, you know, from the suspect list, life doesn't just instantly go back to normal. You know, it's even living with it for such a long time. It's very hard to sort of get back into the mix. And then even then, I've I can't even tell you how many I've interviewed where they say, oh, there's still people who think I did it. Well, speaking of suspects that came up, let's talk about this YouTube video, this catch me killer. Oh, my gosh, what a creep. What a creep. What a loser. Like loser. Loser is a better word. Loser. There were so many things that I thought about this. One, this happened in 2009. I mean, these are kind of, the internet has come so far in such a short amount of time. But when you think back to that time, YouTube was relatively new. This

10:41notion of people kind of uploading videos, like we didn't have social media, certainly to the degree that we do today. So I would imagine that somebody kind of uploading this blanked out, you know, this camouflaged video of themselves on YouTube, you don't see that often. And so, of course. No, yeah, it was very strange for everyone involved. And they're like, what the heck? I had to think, though, I just kept thinking about Tara's family. And I'm like, gosh, that had to have been so hard for them. I mean, just to know that someone's playing a game with your loved one's death. And then to think, oh, maybe we've got them. And then to have that ripped away. I mean, talk about just rubbing salt in the wound, right?

11:17Of course. But let's talk about Payne Lindsey. Because this is somebody who seemingly just happened upon this case and really, really dove in. I loved hearing his origin story about, yeah, my grandma lived down there. I called grandma and I mean, there was kind of a connection immediately. And he said, oh, that's a sign. Let's do it. He could not have picked a better case. Yeah. You know, truly. He had the personal connection. It was ripe to be reopened and examined. And he started to get people to talk. You know, I think it's absolutely fair to say that Payne Lindsay shook the trees, got one, take a sustained interest in a case to the degree that, I mean, they almost have their own case file, right? Like have their own notes, their own,

12:11you know, research and things that they found, and then are able to move the needle forward. Because there's always a part of me that thinks, why didn't police do that? This is just a regular person, no investigative skills, no formal training. And basically, it was just dogged determination that led them to be able to bring forth some results. I mean, I think what happens is that, you know, there's a case, the police are doing everything they can, and then it cools off and they get busy. And again, I should say, certainly no shade to officers because I know that law enforcement is doing their best, right, in so many of these cases and in many of these cases. You know, it was interesting in talking to him or hearing you talk to Payne Lindsey.

12:56Now, he said there were some people who – a lot of people in her inner circle didn't really want to talk, right? I mean, that's something that we're familiar with, but it was ultimately once he kind of started to build some credibility and people said, okay, maybe he's onto something here that people started to open up. I mean, we're familiar with that, right? I mean, imagine being a small town outsider and you're bringing up one of the most sensitive chapters of that town's history, a high-profile disappearance and presumed murder. And you don't know these people. They don't know you. And you're asking them to talk? It's not easy. It's not. I'm curious, as you were working on this story and over the course of the years that you've worked on this story, did you have – you and, you know, the producers who worked on it with you kind of have some of those similar experiences where people were apprehensive at first and then came around or more willing to speak to you after seeing that you stayed on it for so long?

14:00Yeah. I mean, getting Marcus to sit down. Marcus was one of them. The gentleman who went forward, came forward to the police and said that Beau had told him the story at Christmas about a woman, you know, who disappeared. He opened up to us as well. I have to say that among the many interviews that you had in here, and they were all so good, there was one that I recognized, the local reporter, Tony Thomas. I know him. I saw Tony. Oh, okay. We were local reporters together. We were rivals at rival stations. Yes. But we're friends. Well, we, you know, we love interviewing local reporters who bring color, who've been on the case for a long time, their boots on the ground, you know, they live in that area.

14:45Absolutely. But it does, it brings a different perspective. And Tony case for a long time. They're boots on the ground. You know, they live in that area. Absolutely. But it does. It brings a different perspective. And Tony's such a great reporter. He's the kind of reporter when I would show up on a scene and he was there, but Tony's here. He probably knows stuff, right? So it was a joy to see him. That was so fun. When we come back, we have an extra clip from Andrea's interview with Special Agent Gary Rothwell about a long-forgotten tip that was buried in the case file. The Mighty dollar. Once had a whole menu named after it. No more. But one dollar a day lets you add progressive renter's insurance to your auto insurance. Something your younger self would roll

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17:06Call 1-800-GRANGER, click granger.com, or just stop by. Granger, for the ones who get it done. I loved the fact that Bo Dukes was listening to this podcast and was very clearly affected by it. What kind of a person was Bo Dukes was listening to this podcast and was very clearly affected by it. What kind of a person was Bo Dukes? He came from a prominent family in town. They owned those orchards, some of the orchards in town, and he had been in the military. Do you think that that impacted just when that first tip came through from his former army buddy, who, hey, we went out, we got drunk, and he just started saying these things. Do you think that that, just his standing in the community, impacted how he was treated?

17:51Yeah, when you go back to the missed stuff, right, you have the Army buddy who says that he told the police. They say they have no record of him telling them. And then he comes back around and tells them again, this time the GBI listens. But then there's another missed opportunity, which is the people who had started the Find Tara, the Facebook group, they had given the names Bo and Ryan, and it didn't go anywhere. So there were just, unfortunately, there were missed opportunities in this case where some, you know, heartache maybe could have been diminished a little bit earlier on if they had some – if the family had some answers. I know that you had to ask the former agent about that and pressed him on it.

18:39I found myself thinking, like, how does something like that slip through the cracks, right? Yeah, he felt so guilty. But he said, as the guy at the top, as the lead investigator, you know, I take the responsibility and I feel terrible. And he got emotional in the interview because he did devote so much of his life to it and it could have been solved sooner. Sure. We have another clip with my interview with the former GBI agent, Gary Rothwell. Let's listen to that clip. After the arrest was announced, Andy and Janice Paul, who had run the Find Terror website, they got ahold of me that night and they said, y'all have heard of these names before. Someone that Andy and Janice Paul knew told them that he had been at a party, a bonfire party outdoors with a bunch of people, local kids,

19:35and that a couple of guys had made statements, ah, yeah, we're the ones that killed her and we burned her up in a pit. And the way that it was interpreted, it was like they were joking, trying to get attention. And a couple of sheriff's deputies, investigator, and I guess two investigators went and interviewed the person that had the information. And then went out to the scene and used a helicopter and tried to verify it and couldn't corroborate it and basically determined that it was two guys just mouthing off, joking in a party. That information, however it was received by us, was understood that it was a lead that had been addressed by local law enforcement as unfounded, and we did not follow up ourselves.

20:27And that was a mistake. It's tough. It's, you know, it lived with me the rest of my life. But, you know, would it have changed the trial outcome? You know, that's a counterfactual. I don't know. You feel Gary's pain talking about that because imagine that that consumes your life. A case consumes your career until your retirement. Sure. And, wow, there was a tip that was right under your nose. Yes. And he said, you know, local law enforcement heard it, saw it wasn't founded. We didn't follow up. That was a mistake to hear him just, I mean, that straightforward just caught to that. That was our mistake. Ouch. Yeah. But they're human, you know, and there were a lot of moving parts. There were a lot of men to look at. I mean, they did hundreds of DNA swabs,

21:22you know. So in hindsight, it's like, oh, it's like a flashing neon sign, right? No, it's when you're buried in the biggest case file in GBI history, you have to put it into context and perspective that there's no neon flashing sign. There are thousands and thousands of tips and people to look at. And so you can, so you can see how things fall through the cracks. Sure. Yeah. I do not envy. It's just unfortunate. Do not envy their positions at all. Eventually, they were able to take two men to trial. You know, so Ryan Duke is blaming Bo Dukes. And Andrea, we should note that at this point, Bo had already been convicted on charges related to Tara's death, including making false say to the jury? They're trying to

22:25point the finger at Beau, like he's your real killer. And now he's on the stand pleading the fifth. So it gives the jury pause, like, wait, what, like, who, was it Beau? Was it Ryan? Of course. I mean, I think that you nailed it when you asked. Anytime somebody just repeatedly says, I'm pleading the fifth, I'm pleading the fifth, you're thinking, OK, clearly you have something to hide. Right. Clearly there's something going on. And is this really the right – do we have the right guy? Because, you know, they're both pointing the finger at each other. I mean, when you listen to it, I mean, really it did come down to this who are you going to believe, right? Which version of events are you going to believe? I mean, the way this ends, Ryan you going to believe, right? Which version of events are you going to believe?

23:06I mean, the way this ends, Ryan Duke is acquitted, right? Like there's an acquittal. Everyone kind of has their own idea of their own kind of hypotheses of like, what happened? It's just kind of human nature to feel incomplete if you don't know what's happened. So naturally, people want that answer. Yeah. And imagine being the family and not knowing where your loved one is. I mean, it's a whole other level of pain, the not knowing. I mean, it's bad enough that they're gone and they're presumed dead. And then hopefully someone is brought to justice. But I would say almost always, at least in the cases I've covered where there's no body, the killers never seem to give it up. They just won't say where the person is.

23:51And I see it time and time again. And I think to myself, do the right thing. You know, close that chapter of where this person is. Like, you're already going to prison. Just give the family some peace so they can at least bring home their loved one. It always feels so unnecessarily cruel and almost like a power grab. Like, this is the last bit of power I have. Even though I'm going to prison, I have this power over you still. It's driven by cruelty, I believe. I agree with you. And how did Tara's family feel about this? I mean, that's hard. Her mother had passed away, but clearly it did not sit well with her friends and family. They felt injustice. They, you know, this was not the ending. This was not the ending that they wanted.

24:38They truly believe that Ryan did this. The people we spoke to. They don't feel like the wrong guy was on trial and that, you know, maybe Beau did this. Now, and there certainly are people who feel Beau may have done this, even though Beau has never been charged with that crime or accused by law enforcement of killing Tara. And I will say Gary believes it's Ryan. He does not believe it's Beau. But, you know, you do have mixed feelings out there of who did it. But Tara's inner circle believes it was Ryan. But Ryan has denied it. He was acquitted. And that is the outcome. And that is what they have to live with. Andrea, this was a fantastic episode. So many twists. And I loved talking Dateline with you as always.

25:22Yeah. Thanks, Blaine. And coming up after the break, we have senior producer Brad Davis and producer Marissa Meyer, both of whom worked on this episode, who will be here to answer some of your questions from social media. Hi, I'm Alex Gordon, emergency officer at Valley Water. The rainy season is here, and this year El Nino can bring us big problems. Please take time now to make sure you and your household are prepared for incoming storms. Go to valleywater.org slash flood ready and your address and see if you live in an area prone to flooding. Register for emergency alerts. Find your nearest sandbag location and don't wait until the water rises to make an emergency plan. Get started today at valleywater.org slash flood ready.

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26:50this mystery, but do you know about the DNA at the crime scene? Can science finally solve this case? And who is Unknown Male One? An intruder, a third party, male. So Unknown Male One is out there somewhere. Yes. The stunning all new Diane Sawyer investigation, Friday night on ABC. We are back. I'm Dateline producer Marissa Meyer, one of the producers who worked on this story. Blaine and Andrea are out in the field this week. So joining me for our social media questions is Dateline Senior Producer Brad Davis, who found this story. Hi, Brad. Hey, Marissa. How are you? Good. How are you doing? Good. So starting off, Linda Davis Brown on Facebook wants to know whatever happened to the married cop Tara had an affair with.

27:41Did his wife know about it? Yeah, that man's name was Heath Dykes. He is, I believe, still a police officer with the Perry Police Department, which is about an hour north of Osceola where this happened. And we have to assume that his wife found out about it, but he testified in the trial for Ryan Duke about his efforts to reach Tara that weekend. So he is still around and still a police officer. Keith Warhola on Facebook says, regardless of who committed the Tara Grinstead murder, does anyone know why she was killed? Or does anyone have any speculation as to why? The only thing that we can say about that really is that Ryan Duke initially confessed to the murder, saying that he wanted to get into her house to find some money or something that could

28:40help him with his drug habit. And that's what he said in his confession. But of course, he recanted that confession in his defense on the stand. So we're sort of left with no real answer to the question about motive. That still remains an unresolved mystery. Yeah. On to our next one. The Sealed Docket podcast on Facebook says, you can hear how much she meant to her student in that whole town. Tara should still be there. Brad, you really get a sense of in the episode about Tara and how much she was loved and how much she gave back so much to her students and to really everyone in her life. Yeah, she really was an active member of the community, not only at the school, but, you know, working with the young women on the pageants and

29:32was really, you know, invested in the town itself. She was the kind of person that was really missed. You and I have both talked to so many, you know, friends of hers, and I've been talking to family members, you know, some of whom didn't, you know, want to end up going on television, but they were glad that we were doing this story and preserving Tara's memory. Yeah. And something that I think we didn't get to add in the episode, Brad, didn't she also coach the cheerleading team, I think, as well? Yeah, I believe she did. Yeah. I mean, her work at the school went in a lot of different directions. It was just kind of maybe 20, 30, 40 percent of what she actually did in that community we were able to touch on. Yeah. Mary Newman on Facebook says,

30:18if it hadn't been for Up and Vanish and Payne Lindsey, the case would still be unsolved. Yeah, he definitely got the needle moving. Yeah, that's correct. I Lindsey, the case would still be unsolved. Yeah, he definitely got the needle moving. Yeah, that's correct. I mean, this case was definitely a situation where Payne Lindsey created an atmosphere. He was, you know, at the moment that certain people were coming forward, you know, like John McCullough, Brooke Sheridan, these people were coming forward, and then eventually Bo Dukes himself comes forward. During much of that, Payne Lindsay was doing his podcast. And even though he was not aware of any of those people at the time, the fact that he was doing the podcast and sort of asking questions got the community so stirred up that it created this atmosphere that I think really led people

31:05like led Bo Dukes and Brooke to come forward ultimately. I know. I think Andrea really said it best in the episode too, when she has that in her interview with Payne where she says, pressure, pressure, pressure. Yeah. Because it kind of feels like, yeah, he created this pressure cooker atmosphere almost that led to it. Exactly. And Brooke Sheridan in her affidavit with the GBI, when she talked to the GBI, she said, you know, the podcast was something that was weighing on Beau's mind, that I think it stirred up a lot of these issues for him and eventually led her to talk to her mom, who then talked to the police and then got Bo into the GBI. Okay, so for our last question, this was a really big topic on Twitter the night the episode aired,

31:54Brad. And you're from Georgia, so I think you're probably the best person for us to talk about this with. David Neely on Facebook says, it's pe-con. There's a lot of debate on the correct pronunciation. What do you usually say, Brad? Well, I would say that David is right, that it is pe-con. That's what we say. I'm from Atlanta, and that's what we say in the South. We say pe-con. I have never heard anyone down there there say pecan. That's what I would go with. So kudos to David to getting that right. As far as, you know, I know it's some say pecan is still correct, which is probably fine. So it's not a dealer's choice situation. No. If you're in Georgia, it's... Yes, it's pecan if you're in Georgia.

32:47Let's just say that. Pecan, pecan, let's call the whole thing off. Thank you so much for coming up and answering some social questions with us, Brad. Thank you, Marissa. And that's it for Talking Dateline for this week. Thank you so much for listening. Remember, if you have questions about our stories, you can always DM us your audio or video on our social media channels at DatelineNBC, or you can leave us a voicemail. Just give us a call at 212-413-5252 for a chance to be featured right here. And you can always watch the video version of Talking Dateline on YouTube and on the NBC News app and on Peacock. And, of course, we'll see you Fridays on Dateline on NBC. So why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? Introducing Odoo, the only business software you'll ever need.

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