Mehdi Hasan on Trump’s midterms disaster

0:00This is a global production. When I was standing on this balcony two years ago, overlooking the White House in Washington, D.C., during the 2024 presidential election, it felt as if there had been a transformation of American politics, a reordering of American politics. People were talking about a realignment in American politics. Trump and MAGA were hegemonic, all powerful. Trump seemed king of all he surveyed. In fact, people started calling him a king, saying that there might never be a fair and free election in America again. Well, they were wrong about that. And we were wrong that there was a realignment, a permanent reordering of things, as is often the case in American democracy. It always retains its ability to confound and surprise. The Democrats are coming

0:53back to Washington in January. We will move from a Congress which has been among the most supine in the history of the American Republic to a Congress which will probably make Donald Trump and the Republicans' lives a daily political hell. What does this all mean for the politics of America in the next two years, the final two years of the Trump presidency? And what will it mean for the 2028 presidential election? One that I think it's fair to say is shaping up to be a blockbuster. Well who better to turn to than Mehdi Hassan, the founder of Zateo and Zateo UK, the British American journalist based in the United States. I think it's fair to say that he has some strong, characteristically strong views with what the

1:37Democrats should do with their new power. Welcome to the News Agents. The News Agents. The News Agents. Well, Milly, welcome back to The News Agents. Great to be here. I think we spoke about sort of a year or so ago, and it still felt there. I mean, MAGA still felt hegemonic. Did he just throw it all away, or was it always bound to unwind, do you think? Oh, it was definitely bound to unwind because Donald Trump is Donald Trump. And to quote Rick Wilson, everything he touches dies. And that's that's always been the case with Trump and first term Trump, second term Trump. Obviously, any president in the midterms does badly. I mean, Joe Biden did all right, but most presidents do badly. So all of those structural things, they were always going to kick in.

2:22It was always going to unwind. There was always going to be a public backlash at the midterms. Having said that, did he throw it away on top of all that? Sure. Did he throw away quite a golden inheritance that he got? And also because, I mean, we were talking at the time, right? Or everyone was talking at the time about the possibility of a proper realignment, right? And it kind of went that way. They were bragging about having a new coalition of voters, of young people, of Latinos. That's all gone this week, as some of us warned it would, based on the policies. They were bragging about being the people who had dominance on the domestic scene. You had big tech, big universities, big law all

2:57rolling over for Donald Trump. Trump was just bragging a few weeks ago that, you know, in the old days, I couldn't get the Google guy on the phone. Now I call them and they change maps for me. Well, that all changed this week. And of course, the big one is Iran, right? All roads lead back to Iran. You know, you don't want to say this in a weird way, but liberals at the left of the United States, this will be spun badly. I don't know why I'm even saying it. But like the Iranian government helped deliver this result. Had Iran just rolled over and been defeated a few months ago, Trump would be in a very strong position today. But they didn't. The war was a disaster, as many of us warned it would be.

3:30The Iranians themselves held out for the midterms. U.S. intelligence reported the Iranians had an eye on November. They were holding out because they knew it would damage Trump. And it has. Everything goes back to Iran. The oil prices, the betrayed promise, etc. Do you think that in terms of what Trump betrayed promise etc do you think that um in terms of what trump does now would you think he cares i mean and this is a sort of weird question right because you think an incumbent president of course they'll care if their party sort of you know is it takes an absolute shellacking as obama famously said of his performance in 2010 but he does he really care it's not like he had much of a domestic agenda anyway. It all went into the big, beautiful bill. That was ages ago.

4:06Congress was doing very little. Does he really care? I think he cares on two levels. Number one, he cares because he's a very bad loser, as we know. There's reporting that he sat in the dark with Natalie Harp, his human printer, watching the results coming in. That's all I said. Human printer in the dark. That's the reporting, believe it or not. Clearly, it bothered him. You heard him on Fox on the night. He was in a very, the tone was very different. You know what I like? How he instantly went to, yeah, they've done very badly. They. He said, I was on the ballot. Had I been on the ballot, we'd have done better. The problem is, he is the one who undermined them, right? They lost because of him.

4:43It's an awful party. But they were dragged down by a president. On the eve of voting, he was talking about a reflecting pool here in D.C. That was his last cell. He was talking about ballrooms. And you say, does he care? I'll tell you what, though. He will care if he gets impeached. Now, I think it's unlikely he gets impeached, especially the noises we're hearing from usual figures in the Democratic leadership. But he'll definitely care if they come after him and his family personally for their grift, for their alleged corruption. Presumably he'll just issue a load of pardons almost immediately now, right? That won't stop investigations. But yes, Elon Musk is definitely angling for a pardon, I'm sure, this week.

5:23Where do you think this puts his power now, his currency within the Republican Party. Because obviously his great strength politically over 10 years now has been that absolute sort of ironclad grip on the Republican Party, his endorsements, his ability to primary people or to make sure that people lost the nomination at any given moment. But this is the first time, it seems to me, that Maga has been properly repudiated. I mean, actually, every other election, he's tended to overperform. Even when he lost the election in 2020, it didn't feel like repudiation of him because he did better. And it was pandemic, right? And it was pandemic, exactly. He'd probably have won without it. Does the fact that this is the biggest repudiation of him, does it start to loosen his power on the Republican Party?

6:04But, of course, he will spin it as not a repudiation of him, right? Going forward as will his people. Everyone will know that the emperor has no clothes. It's definitely a moment for anti-Trump forces to coalesce, have that momentum, have that confidence, because a lot of what we saw last year, you talk about hegemonic, it wasn't just that he was in a powerful position, it was that his opponents were just so on the ropes, were so beaten down. Your Democrats just there was no energy. I remember listening to Kim Jeffrey saying last year, well, we've got no leverage. We don't control anything. What can we do? And that's now gone. Right. They control two chambers. They control a bunch of state governments, by the way.

6:37The number of governors now. 75% of the American population will be living under a Democrat government. Big change. Because even when Democrats are doing well federally, they were not doing well in the state. And it's across the board. I mean, in Texas, they won state Supreme Court justice seats. So there was a dominance across the board, and that will restrict his abilities. My worry, of course, is that he would just tune out of domestic politics and say, you know what, well, as every president in their lamed up period, I have a lot of freedom abroad. And I'm still worried about Iran. I know J.D. Vance has put out this statement this week, saying, well, Iran costs us votes. It's classic J.D. Vance poster. I'm just a commentator. Not that I'm the

7:07vice president in the administration that attacked Iran illegally. But my worry is that he looks abroad and said, well, I can do whatever I want abroad because that's where Congress can't really restrict the president. A lot of freedom in foreign policy. Obama used his last two years in office to do good things abroad. The Cuba reopening, the Iran nuclear deal, Paris. Trump could do it to do some real damage on the international stage he's got the authority i mean he's obviously got the power because he's the president but congress can still try and defund parts of the defense department and also his authority within the yeah you have you have more confidence in democratic leadership congress than i do i mean they've got an opportunity

7:40in december to defund the war and chuck schumer's not taking he said we'll do it in the new year when we take control. No, you can do stuff now. A lot of people in the Democratic Party are quite hawkish themselves. They don't want to look weak on defense. Donald Trump could just ignore. He's ignored the war powers resolution that went against him this year. There's a lot of stuff he can do. I think the people who are really upset about these results are people like Stephen Miller, who actually do have an ambitious domestic policy agenda. Deputy Chief of Staff, de facto shadow prime minister. He's the guy really running the domestic agenda. They have grand plans for transforming this country, for making America

8:12great again, slash white again. And I think for those people, I think they're going to struggle because they don't have that power base in Congress. And look, Trump is the reason we have to keep saying this in these media periods. People like me have to keep pointing out. He is the reason they lost this election. He is the reason they did so badly. He forced out Tom Tillis and left a vacancy in North Carolina for Roy Cooper to fill. He picked Ken Paxton over John Cornyn, who could have beaten Tallarica probably in a way that Paxton certainly couldn't. So he is the person who is toxic for their party. Is Vance the big loser? In terms of looking at 28? He is a big loser in general. And in terms of this week,

8:45sorry, I couldn't resist. In terms of this week, yes. I actually think all of them. I think Rubio is also a big loser. I've said for a while, and I'm glad that people are now coming around to this view, that this idea that the next Republican candidate in 28 is either Rubio or Vance, just a complete nonsense. We're two years out. A lot can happen. And I don't understand how a Republican candidate can go into 2028 and win while being attached to Donald Trump. And therefore, it has to be someone outside of the Trump circle. Ron DeSantis, who I've always mocked as a very weak figure with a glass jaw, who got beaten badly. He got beaten badly in the last round. You've seen him make a lot of noise

9:17this week. And I'm finding myself nodding to Ron DeSantis clips. He's doing an analysis of the Republican Party that they don't want to hear. And he right how does ruby or vance run when they back the iran war they backed uh deportations they backed all this stuff and presumably the space is now open on the republicans i was talking about the democrats a minute but on the republican side presumably the space is now wide open for as you say a non-trump affiliated person to come along maybe a tucker carlson or someone like that and basically you go the problem wasn't MAGA. The problem was that Trump wasn't MAGA enough. The problem was that he repudiated or went back on the principles that MAGA was built on,

9:53economic populism, got too close to big tech, the Iran war, foreign adventurism and so on. And that is presumably the most likely. Which is the Marjorie Taylor Greene line. Some of these ex sycophants of his who have turned on him, Tucker, Marjorie, Thomas Massey. This is their line. They haven't given up on the underlying racist authoritarian principles behind MAGA. They just think he's not a very good messenger of it. He and his family are such corrupt grifters that they're busy with that and not doing the real stuff. And there's a validity to that critique. Ron DeSantis ran this line in 24. It didn't work for him then, which was, we liked what Trump did. It was just Trump himself was too chaotic.

10:30That was the line. I'll be a more efficient deliverer of the MAGA agenda. And I think you're going to get a lot of that. But the problem is they don't really have anyone. There's no real dynamic person. The bench seems really thin to me. The bench is thin. And also, well, they did. Trump has made that bench on purpose. And also, don't forget something that the media doesn't talk about, which is, there's never been a race like 2028 that we're going to see because in every previous race where there was a sitting president, think about to 2000, Al Gore is running against George Bush. Al Gore is the vice president to Bill Clinton who has two terms, term limited out. Clinton has been impeached, controversial.

11:02Does Clinton interfere in the election? No, he stays away from it. Al Gore runs and he stays away. Do you think Donald Trump is going to stay out of the 2028 election? When J.D. Vance is asked... Well, it'll be like one long season of The Apprentice. Like with your 2028... He would be the sitting president at the time, able to screw over anyone. If J.D. Vance is asked as the candidate in 2028, hey, what do you think about Iran? And he goes, yeah, I think we made a mistake. You think Trump's going to just sit quietly and not put out a truth social by saying, F you, J.D. Vance. vance jd was on his knees begging me he's going to screw over whoever that republican candidate is trump is going to be backseat driving that

11:33campaign um what effects do you think this has now on the kind of wider radical right movements around the world i'm thinking about the uk obviously principally but not not just there because obviously i mean they're running a mile now, putting as much space between them as possible. You listen to people like Farage and Generic and so on. But they became very, they associated themselves indelibly. And not just that, but they sort of sucked in on the same cup, didn't they? They sort of like, they rode the same intellectual political winds that Trump and MAGA did. And when they had momentum, Trump, that is, and MAGA, these other groups have momentum. Do you think it's problematic for these other forces?

12:10I want to be optimistic about that. But one thing I would slightly push back is the momentum was not always one way. Trump had a lot of momentum because of them. Orban and these other people are people that the MAGA folks looked at for inspiration. Tucker Carlson was doing a show from Hungary. Steve Bannon was going, doing conferences in Italy with the fascists in Italy. And, you know, we still got a French presidential election to come where Marine Le Pen is still the favorite. You know, reform have taken a big hit in the UK this year for their own reasons, separate to anything that happened here. No, I wouldn't write off any of these far right forces because they have capitalized on, you know,

12:42attitudes and trends that they've weaponized over the years. One thing I would say is, if I'm Farage, God help me, or Jenrick, or any of these Rupert Lowe, or Marine Le Pen, or whoever it is, I mean, the message you take away from this election is, A, don't get involved in ridiculous Middle East wars, which a lot of them are not necessarily that hawkish. And I know reform was, but a lot of the European far right are not that hawkish on the Middle East. And the other thing is, well, don't try and enrich yourselves while you're doing this. Try and be a little bit more competent and effective as a leader. And I think, you know, Nigel Farage, interestingly, has been accused of all sorts of financial things of making money and donations, which have hurt him. And I think we haven't talked enough about the corruption piece of this then a fox poll on

13:25the eve of this election a fox news poll found that the number one issue for voters was corruption i never thought i would see that in my lifetime americans never put anything above the economy or immigration well they put corruption above it and also i mean something i noted in texas a lot i mean talarico was talking about this yeah also people bringing it up noting the link between the two things actually drawing the link between the two things, actually drawing the link between cost of living and corruption. I mean, Tallarico did this brilliantly, right? He basically goes, look, the reason that you're paying more at the pump or the reason you're paying more for your grocery bills is because there is

13:56a sort of rigged system which is, the whole thing is basically the political class being bought by people like Musk. Well, he was aided by Musk. Elon Musk money backfired in Texas, I think for sure, where this guy this guy moves to texas and tries to buy the senate race and allows talarico to have this foil against the oligarchy and it's funny because we're going to talk about moderate democrats you know this idea of moderate democrats all the moderate democrats sound like bernie sanders now when it comes to the economy they're all running as they're all running as anti-corporate um populists and what's interesting is the American public have made that connection. They look at their gas prices.

14:26Even MAGA people have made that connection. They see Jared Kushner doing amazing deals in the Middle East while we're fighting this war in the Middle East. They see Don Jr.'s company, drone company, is making money off government contracts while they're not. And I think the corruption, this idea of, you know, stagnant real wages, high gas prices, but the Trumps are doing really well. And then Donald Trump leans into it. Donald Trump does a rally where he's like, well, if you went to Mar-a-Lago and I gave you a $5,000 check, you wouldn't even be able to buy a burger in Mar-a-Lago. Are you insane? Why would you say that out loud? Because he's Donald Trump. He's Marion Twinnett. I mean, he's pure Marion Twinnett period, right?

14:58I mean, he just... I think he makes Marion Twinnett look like Mother Teresa. Well, we'll talk. If you want to go down a historical analogy. We'll talk a little bit more about the democrats right after this somebody what to what extent what lessons do you think the democrats can take from from these elections in the sense that again i think when we talked a year or so ago you know the democratic brand look moribund deeply unpopular they're not they're they're polling isn't that great now i mean their actual brand yes it's not great no did the democrats win this election or did just trump hand it all to i? I think it's a bit of both. I think clearly, you know, there's a phrase in the UK, as you know, that oppositions don't win elections, governments lose them.

15:52That is very much the case when it comes to all midterms, as we discussed earlier. Certainly, Trump gave them a golden opportunity. Had there not been an Iran war, had there not been the gas price rises, cost of living crisis, corruption, it would have been harder for them to run. Well, it would probably have been like his first midterms in 2018, right? They probably ran on health care and they did well. But it wouldn't be this kind of route, right? Where, you know, 50 year type victory, half a century type results. I mean, we're seeing results where in places like Iowa, just to put this in context for your audience, a state house Democrat suspended his race in September. He goes, I've got health issues.

16:26And he won the race. He's like, oh, I've been elected. I wasn't even running. And he said, I have still got the health issues. I've still got my health issues. I'm going to have to work. In Arizona, a 19-year-old just got elected as clerk of the fourth biggest county in the United States of America. So this is the kind of people, it reminds me of 1997. I remember when Labour won their 179th seat. There were MPs who were coming in. Who are these people? People in Labour HQ were like, who are these people? So this is the level of the win. And that clearly is to do with this being a unique moment which Trump has delivered. Having said that, Democrats ran strong candidates in a lot of races. They ran people like Tallarico.

16:59They ran people like Abdul El-Sayed, who I do think is a strong candidate, despite some of the centrist propaganda against him. They ran Roy Cooper, a popular two-term governor in North Carolina. They ran people like Abdul El-Sayed, who I do think is a strong candidate, despite some of the centrist propaganda against him. They ran Roy Cooper, a popular two term governor in North Carolina. They ran people at house level, strong candidates, populists, as we said a moment ago. And that helped them. And they ran with the right message. Now, the question is the brand. They shouldn't get carried. They shouldn't get high on their own supply. The brand is still unpopular. People in this country are still angry at the political system, at this two party system.

17:24And they don't have much time. The clock is ticking. If they don't deliver fast, people will turn against them again. One thing to notice about American politics. And, you know, there's better than me having been in the UK. We're living in a federal moment. People are swapping prime ministers and presidents. They're swapping parties in parliament like that. As the Republicans did with the talk of realignment. Lasted 18 months. What kind of realignment is that? It's highly contingent, it feels to me. What do you think, what would the mistake be for the Democrats? What would the bad thing, in terms of both what they take from this, but also in terms of what they now do with their power, what would the mistake be?

17:59For me, there are many potential mistakes in terms of, for example, not stopping the war. If they kind of relax on that front, it will be a mistake. But number one for me, I'm very worried about the Hakeem jeffries the man who should uh will be probably speaker of the house uh the leader of the democrats in the house who you're not people most people are not a fan i mean 80 percent of democrats say they want a replacement in congress uh depending on which poll you look at between 60 and 80 percent of democratic voters say they don't want chuck schumer as the leader of the senate they don't want hakeem jeffries leader the house because they want fighters in terms of they want fighters. He didn't do well.

18:25In terms of the candidates that he picked out. Didn't he pick Hayley Stevens? For Michigan, that worked out well. She literally tried to rat F the Democrats on the eve of the election. He picked Janet Mills. He didn't pick the winner in Maine. No, that's certainly true. But he is credited. He's going to be the majority leader. Is he? I hope not. Let's see. I don't think the Democrats can stop Hakeemem but there is a path to stopping chuck schumer you think that you think the mistake would be to stick with hakeem jeffries and 100 that's my number one objection but i'm a realist i recognize that hakeem jeffries will definitely be speaker given the majority they've won and it will be historic to have an african-american speaker for sure and i think in

19:01the senate chuck schumer will probably be the leader, but it's not guaranteed. But look, I think there's a leadership issue. Let's talk about personalities. Why do I object to them? Because I don't like them. Put that to one side. It's because I worry that they are not the leaders for this moment. This moment is a moment of populist anger at a rigged economic system and at a corrupt political system. And people, Democrats in particular, the base, want their people in part. We've elected you to Congress now. They're saying you've got to go fight for us. No rolling over. No, let's be bipartisan. Let's reach across the aisle. Let's all be friends and have come by our moments. That's all you're there to do. You don't think there's a danger of overreach?

19:35No, I think there's a danger of underreach. I think Robert Garcia, who's going to be running the oversight committee, I think it was exactly the right moment. What did he tweet on election night? He said, lawyer up. That is exactly the reaction that Democrats want politically. But also, put aside the naked politics of this moment. American government needs this. We need an accounting. We need a reckoning. So when you hear someone like Tallarico say, I want to work with Trump and I want to reach across the aisle and all that stuff, you think that's the wrong approach? Well, he's not just saying that. No, he's not just saying that. But even Zoran Mundani, who I'm a big fan of, has worked with Trump to get stuff done.

20:07That's different. If there's a specific bill that you think you can work on, that's one thing. But if you're rolling over and letting the corruption go, letting the ICE abuses go, I mean, Robert Garcia has been very strong in saying, we're going to investigate ICE. We're going to investigate the foreign corruption. Do you think they should do that, guys? 100%. very strong in saying we're going to investigate ICE. We're going to investigate the foreign corruption. We're going to invest 100 percent if they if ICE carries on as a rogue racist militia next year while Democrats control both chambers. Good luck. Look at the poll ratings and every poll shows that on immigration, the voters want a change in direction. There's no point winning

20:40a landslide and then not doing what the voters asked you to do, which is end a war, change direction on immigration, deal with the economic crisis, deal with corruption. What would you say to the argument, which you've just referred to it, and I've heard it, particularly from a certain type of kind of centrist Democrat commentator, which is to say that, look, actually, the lesson from these elections is you tack to the middle. You look at Ossoff, you look at Tallarico and these people that they're running campaigns which aren't highly progressive. How did Ossoff tack to the middle? And highly, just let me put the argument here. Go on. And actually, if you look at certain candidates, particularly like Abdel Sassied,

21:13for example, who are running on the more progressive end, that those are the candidates who actually underperformed the national, I mean, look, Al-Sayed won by what, seven points in Michigan? Yeah. 13 points nationally. Ossoff won by 20 points in Georgia. Is there not some truth to that argument? No, I don't. I think that whole numbers argument, I've had this argument with people like Matthew Iglesias who pushed this line. It's absolute nonsense because it doesn't factor in specific context in races. It doesn't factor in candidate quality. It doesn't factor in opponent quality. It doesn't factor in cost. I mean, Abdul El-Sayed had over $100 million spent against him in Michigan. First, AIPAC spent

21:43$30 million in the primary. And in the primary was outspent by two hundred and talarico is the only good which is why i think talarico's race was insane which is why i'm the one saying talarico could be a presidential contender in 28 if he wanted it you'll have no objections to me on talarico i'm a fan i'm saying if you compare for example abdul sayed to a roy cooper who won by double digits north carolina which some do i think that's an insane comparison that's a former two-term governor who didn't have the same campaign. Abdullah al-Sayed, on the eve of his election, had his opponent try and screw him over. Show me an analogy for any other Democratic candidate who had to go through that. Do you think there are other reasons that al-Sayed... Islamophobia? Can we talk about

22:15that? 45% of people in Michigan said they would never vote for a Muslim for president. He's also a bit dislikable sometimes. No. I think he's actually the opposite. I think he's actually got Obama vibes. What about the James Matthews thing? Yeah, that was bad. Let's just play that to people, because I think people the opposite when we saw the judge you got Obama vibes. What about James the James Matthews thing? Yeah, that was bad. Let's let's just play that to people because I feel so close. We play that necessarily Are you registered to vote in Michigan? Why would I care to have a conversation with you? Why would I care to have a conversation? I'm a journalist. I'm a journalist in the UK You know how many votes I want to get in the UK this this zero. I'm never running for office

22:43But this election matters. This election matters to the world. What do you think or the questions you ask? You're bidding to be a senator. A senator in where? What country? In the United States. The leader of the free world. What country are you in? I'm based in the United States. And I report. But you report for where? Where are your viewers? They're international. They are international. Sky News is not viewed in the United States of America. It's only viewed in the UK. We have an international audience. I'm just going to tell you. Is your election not relevant? Is it not relevant to the UK? Is your election not relevant to the rest of the world? Is it not relevant to the rest of the world?

23:19Stop chasing me around, please. I'm not chasing you around. I'm asking you questions. So we see there, abdul i said and look maybe it's the end of a long campaign maybe he's just a bit pissed off you know these have these moments but it felt quite trump bullying like to me don't you think exactly how trump deals with him not exactly how trump i mean he was still he didn't call it he didn't call james matthew a traitor scum or fake news he did he did he did he did and and and look abdul it likes to throw punches clearly and that's why a lot of people like him. They've been waiting for a Democrat to throw some punches. But that probably... No, come on. Because he's a polarizing figure. No, if he's a polarizing figure, how did he win by seven points?

23:55Because he was standing in a tsunami election. You can't have it both ways. I was told, I was told, I'm sorry, I have a memory longer than a goldfish. I was told in August and July and June that Abdul El-Sayed, oh, he might not win. And if he wins, he'll win by half a percentage point. In fact, Abdul El-Sayed said in May, I'm going to win by seven points. First of all, pretty good prophecy there. He won by seven points. People belittled that. People said he would not win. So first the bar was he won't win the primary, won the primary. Then they said he won't win the general. Hold on, hold on. Then they said he won't win the general. He won the general. Then they said he'll't win the general. Hold on, hold on. Then they said he won't win the general,

24:25he won the general. Then they said he'll win narrowly. I said fan club. He did win that. No, it's not about fan club. It's about this, I need to push back on this bullshit narrative, which is underperformance by progressive. We're being told that Troy Jackson underperformed in Maine. Yeah, well, yeah. Sorry, Susan Collins was senator for 30 years. Chuck Schumer sent his favorite people to beat her. They failed. This underperformance nonsense has to stop. Maybe, maybe, maybe. And by the way, I look at someone like Zoran Mamdani, who I often joke about. This guy is a Muslim mayor of New York. They try and call him a jihadist. Everyone looks at him and says, that guy, jihadist, don't be silly. He's always smiling. He's the nicest guy.

24:57Abdul El-Sayed, it's easier to throw the trope of angry Muslim man at Abdul, clearly. And that's something for his own perceptional purposes he'd have to work on. But look, Democrats want a fighter. I can assure you next year who is going to be a more popular Democrat in the Senate. Abdul El-Sayed or Roy Cooper. I promise you it'll be Abdul El-Sayed because he'll be doing stuff people want to be done. And his Islamophobia, you're right, is on another level. I mean, we've seen in this campaign. Islamophobia, the pro-Israel funding against him, the Hayley Stevens factor. You can't just wipe this out and say underperformance. I just want to push back on the Ossoff thing. You mentioned John Ossoff. Yeah.ff yeah great candidate one big what was his campaign

25:27every time i saw his campaign was corruption every clip that went viral was i'm gonna hold trump to account for corruption he also said in his victory speech that when his daughter asked him what do you do to stop fascism he will say he did what he had to do so you tell me about moderation no i want ossoff to go in the senate and hold hearings. I want him to pull Jared Kushner and Elon Musk and Stephen Miller into a hearing. In terms of 28, who, I mean, just talk us through the candidates. Who do you want to run? Who do you think will? I think about 30 people are going to run. It's going to be insane. I keep reminding people in 2016, there was a kiddie table debate on the Republican side because there were 18 candidates.

26:01The night before they had like all the losers, Lindsey Graham, Nikki Haley. They went like the night before, the big night. Holy Fear Arena. All the randos went the night before. For the Democrats, they may need three nights of these TV debates if everyone actually runs, because there's at least 25 to 30 people who want to run. Now, whether they all run, we'll see. I think, you know, let's do some British, we're in the US, let's do some British political quoting. Harold Wilson said a week is a long time in politics. In the US right now, 24 hours is a long time in US politics. The idea that we know in two years who's going to be up or down, these polls take them with a shovel of salt that show AOC, Kamala Harris,

26:32Gavin Newsom, they're all going to change. Do you think, though, I mean, do you think there has been a sort of generational turning of the page? I mean, it feels to me, I mean, the sort of Newsom's, the Harris's old hat now? Not just old hat, it's can they adapt to what the voters want? As I say, the voters are in a very populist place right now. They want fighters. They want people who are going to call out corruption. They want people who are going to change the system. They want people who are going to campaign for Medicare for all, take bold positions. When people like me talk about the relationship with Israel, for example, people say, well, voters don't care about foreign policy. That's not the point. I agree. Most American voters, not their top issue, whether we sell

27:01arms to Israel. But what they do care about is someone who's willing to take a strong, unpopular stance, not unpopular, but a stance against the establishment. And that's why people like Abdul El-Sayed and others and Zoran Mamdani and others and AOC have stood out. Because these all these issues like standing up against Israel or fighting for the release of the Epstein files, there are issues where the voters say, oh, that person, they're different to the establishment. I mean, Israel's relationship with politics, with the US right now. I mean, it feels so. I mean, this is something that has- Like something I've never seen before in my life. The transformation is a- J.D. Vance came out against Israel in his statement. It is post-mortem.

27:32Yes. Even on the Republican side, they're having a reckoning. And on the Democratic side, we saw across the board, the Democratic voters wanted to change their relationship with Israel. AIPAC money didn't work to stop Abdul El-Sayed in the primary or the general. There is going to be a resetting of the ratio. But look, to go back to what we talked about earlier, Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries are still the leaders of the party, and they are hardcore pro-Israel. So there's a little bit of a disconnect there between the leadership and the base. Just thinking about British politics for a moment on the left, do you think Andy Burnham and Labour can learn much from what's just happened in the midterms?

28:01It's a good question. I sometimes think, as you know, you cover both countries. Sometimes it's very hard to kind of stretch comparisons. The US midterms are very particular to this moment. There isn't a Trump in the UK. But one thing I would say is, look, I am someone who said for a long time, campaign against corruption. People have been mad about corruption since at least 2008. In the sense of a rigged system. In the sense of a rigged system. Labour never capitalised on the financial crisis. Blair and Brown never capitalised on the financial crisis in the way they should have. And the right took advantage of that over the last decade and a half. Instead of the public going, you know what, we're going to move to the left

28:32because Wall Street screwed us, because the City of London screwed us. It never happened, right? Instead, we went anti-migrant and the right-wing populists came along. This is a moment to say people are very, very upset with a rigged system. Campaign on that. And by the way, who are the candidates who did well? Authentic candidates. Tallarico, Ossoff, Abdul. Andy Burnham has authenticity going for him, surely. That's how he got the job in the first place. I mean, actually, I mean, just find it. I mean, it strikes me. It strikes me that one of the things that is, that Trump did wrong in the last two years. I mean, I saw a stat. I saw one of the exit polls that the other day, which I couldn't believe. Although actually it completely sort of cohered with what I was seeing in Texas.

29:0757% of Americans said that data centers and AI were a factor in how they're designed to vote. 57%. Now, it feels to me America is sort of further ahead or further along in this than Britain. But, you know, we'll catch up. Trump's choosing to associate, choosing with big tech, with Musk, with AR, has been really lethal for him, hasn't it? Very lethal. Big tech was supposed to be the way he was going to transform the country. Remember the inauguration? Again, how time flies. January 2025, the big tech bosses are standing in the best row. They've got the best seats in the house behind Trump at the inauguration. You've got Bezos and Musk and Altman. They're all there. You think, wow, what a realignment. These guys were all, once Silicon Valley was

29:48liberal, it was democratic. Now they're with MAGA. And this could be another vibe shift. I think they know what's coming. I think they know that they're going to get investigated. I think they know they're going to be hopefully held to account. And I think, look, they are hugely unpopular. They know it. They're coming out saying, regulate us, regulate us more. They're going to have a huge PR campaign now from the AI folks, I can assure you, going forward, because they've seen the data centers are so unpopular. And again, to go back to this whole moderate versus progressive, when you say the moderates, moderates were running against AI data centers. You know, people in Texas. Yeah. I mean, as somebody pointed out on Twitter the other day, moderate Democrats now sound like Bernie Sanders. Fine with me. Finally, are we actually?

30:25I mean, Trump, I mean, whatever one thinks of him, there's no doubt he has dominated American politics for longer than pretty much any president since FDR. You know, over three terms. Even Biden's term, he completely dominated in his own work. But is the sort of chapter, is Trump's chapter in American politics? Are we finally seeing the page being turned, do you think? On him personally, maybe. I've always been of the school of thought that trump may not go in 28 people laugh at me and say that's so hyperbole i said do not rule it out that he does some dodgy stuff in 2028 i am feeling a bit better about that this week i feel with democrat control of both houses i mean people i remember people saying the midterms yes so that's what i'm saying i look

31:02when the facts change i've changed my mind this week has made me feel a little bit more optimistic because, number one, he didn't do a I'm not accepting the results for the midterms, but he wasn't on the ballot. And number two, having Democrats in control of the House of State, and more importantly, governorships in Wisconsin, places where they could do all sorts of dodgy things, they can prevent that from happening. I feel a bit better about the fact that he won't be running or trying to stay in office in 28. Having said that, so, are we going to turn a page on Trump? Yes, in two years, inshallah. Are we turning a page on Trumpism? No, I actually think it's only going to get worse. I think the fever dream on the right, the fever swamp is only going to get worse.

31:34I am of the view that in 2032, you're looking at a Nick Fuentes type Republican candidate if they carry on in the direction they're going in. People don't realize in this city, go to Congress. Go see who's working for Republican Congress, not the Republican members of Congress, go look at who their staff are. All their young aides straight out of college, they're all Gropers. They're all neo-Nazi adjacent. They're all fans of Nick Fuentes. They're all white nationalists. I'm sorry to say, and this is not just me saying this, Republicans are saying this. They say we can't hire anyone out of university because they're all crazy. These are the people who are going to be running the party in four, eight years time.

32:03Think about who the candidate is going to be. If a Democrat comes in in 2028 and actually does some serious change, progressive change, Republicans are going to react really badly to that in 2032. So is Trumpism gone? No, I think we're going to see, as you mentioned earlier, like a purer, dare I call it, purer, more extreme. Remember that? Yeah. Oh, God. I think it wasn't so bad. Yeah, Donald Trump. We missed the incompetent fascists. We missed the incompetent fascists who were obsessedquetoast. We missed the incompetent fascists who were obsessed with ballrooms. Now we have the real thing obsessed with concentration camps. God help us. What will the note on which to leave it? Optimistic as ever.

32:32No, I am optimistic. He's smiling. Can't say that all the time. Mehdi Hassan, right for your time. Thank you. Somehow, we always seem to finish with neo-Nazis. That's it from us for this week from Washington, D.C. and our midterms coverage. It has been an extraordinary week in American politics and doubtless we will be covering the long lasting effects for weeks, months, indeed years to come. We will be back on Monday from London. Thanks so much for watching all of our coverage and listening as well. We'll see you then. Grainger knows if you're a procurement manager at an industrial manufacturing facility, you're balancing inventory and budget while sourcing critical supplies across the operation. Too much inventory? Cost climb. Too little? Production slows.

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