James McClean: 'Hung out to dry' for refusing to wear Poppy - The Sports Agents

0:00Grainger knows if you're a procurement manager at an industrial manufacturing facility, you're balancing inventory and budget while sourcing critical supplies across the operation. Too much inventory? Cost climb. Too little? Production slows. Grainger's $2 billion in on-hand inventory helps you get what you need when you need it, so you can help keep budgets balanced and lines moving. Call 1-800-GRAER, clickgranger.com or just stop by. Granger, for the ones who get it done. This is a global production. What it was like when we have people in who have done a book, before we get into the book, is to find out whether they enjoyed the experience. No. You are a product of your environment. You know, it has crazy stuff,

0:50like learning to make a petrol bomb at that age, but we're not messing about. We're getting straight into it. I had death threats when we shot live on TV. I had balls sent to the post. It was just an absolute chaotic time and no one knew how to handle it. I've had so much support behind the scenes from players, but never publicly. If it was solely both wires, I would no problem donning a poppy. It's easy to judge someone and something without knowing all the Sports Agents. From the Premier League to international football and then to Wrexham, James McLean has enjoyed an extraordinary career. Now in his autobiography, The Walls, he has opened up about everything that has shaped him and his career.

1:41What struck me in the very, very beginning of the book, you punch a Crystal Palace supporter at the very beginning. And within a few pages, we're learning about you and your mates learning how to make a petrol bomb. And, you know, so we're thrown right into the geography of your upbringing in Derry. We're thrown into the troubles. We learn about somebody being a child, being shot in the house that you grow up in as well. And I think it gives us a sense of place in the book that helps us get right into your world and your your upbringing and and i think for a lot of people who know you as a great footballer and had a good career and you know all the things they see on the outside one of the things that obviously we're going to get

2:21into is the poppy and so i think that early part of the book i think will tell people a lot about what comes later on did did you when you read the book back because obviously you're relaying your stories did that come for you as as an interesting way to kind of set the book up that that early exchange yeah it was just one of those ones straight in the deep end we're not we're not messing about here we're getting we're getting straight into it um but i always i always say you're you are a product of your environment so i know it does sound you know it has crazy stuff when you speak about it like learn to make a petrol bomb and all at that age. But, you know, that's your upbringing. You don't know any different.

3:08So when you're growing up and that, that's the norm. So it's not, to you, it's not crazy. It's not, this is just the way of life here back home. So obviously now as you're older and you're reading the book and you're reflecting back and you're thinking, yeah, it's not the norm but and you've got kids yourself thankfully our times has moved on where they don't have that upbringing and they don't have to be educated on politics something I've never done educate my children on politics because there's no need to so I'm obviously quite thankful no need to so I'm obviously quite thankful. No need to why? Because they don't have to love it, it's not that time no more, don't get me wrong I want them to be proud to be Irish

3:56and have that Irish identity but in terms of the troubles and stuff like that we've moved on now. There is no bloodshed on the streets, thankfully, no more. There is no fighting every day, burnt buses, riots. Eventually, they're going to learn it for themselves as you get older. So I would rather let them do that for themselves. As you sort of say, you know, there was a normality to what you were doing at that time because that's what the generation above had done and it sort of gets passed that. Did you feel that it was a hard, tough upbringing? In terms of you fended, you learned about life on the street I mean even the stories you play football with hung over older men and broken glass on the streets

4:50you obviously it's quite different now everyone's kind of more guilty of it myself you don't let your you used to get up in the morning and your parents could maybe stay on bed and you would get ready and you'd be away for all day. And it was a safe environment. Everyone looked after everyone. So if you were hungry, you came home for food. When the street lights came on at night, you knew, all right, it's time to go. You are a product of your environment. So that shaped me and it was more of a generation where you didn't have really much choice but to be tougher and work things out for yourselves. I always laugh and say to my wife, my children wee, probably a wee bit more streetwise because, you know,

5:45it's high school and children of that age can be quite cruel. Just on Erin, before we get to your football career as well, she is a voice in the book, very much a voice in the book. Sometimes in correcting your account of things, it's a great... That's marriage. That's marriage, things. That's marriage. That's marriage, yeah. I mean, you and Kenny doing a book like that would be a truly astonishing read. It's a good technique, that. And did it give you a sort of interest? I mean, I'm sure you've talked to each other about all the events anyhow, but did it give you an interesting perspective as you went through your career and life? No, it does. She's my voice of reason. They sum it up like that.

6:36She has my voice of reason because I'm a very stubborn, headstrong person, so sometimes I can get an idea and run with and she'll be the one not many that i'll listen to uh and she'll make me make me see sense and make sometimes well a lot of times i'm my own worst enemy so there's there's no getting away from that so she's she's probably saved me a lot more from being my own worst enemy than than i already have been so the book really um paints a very vivid picture of your arrival in in sunderland and what it was like as a young man who um was on his own to start with him and eventually you would bring craigan to the northeast yeah and and surround yourself with people who you know who you've kind of grown up with and And Aaron obviously eventually moves in with you.

7:27But at the very beginning, the flat that you were in, I had a very kind of stark feeling for you of this flat that you didn't work out the heating, so you used to move around with your duvet on from the bed to the sofa. Your football boots in the bath, putting bubble kitchen washing up liquid into your dishwasher. I mean, you really didn't have any domestic skills whatsoever did you? No I'm not and it was such a lovely apartment as well it was such a nice apartment but see there's a thing with Irish mommies where Aaron would slag me all the time still he would say we're spoiled because even now I'm a fully grown man now and if my ma comes to my house I go to hers she's like oh her son all day our field is free and that's just that's just there's a that's it's

8:12an Irish mommy thing where it's just like the boys are spoiled like the mommy's look at them so she had done everything for me that I point so when I that go across I didn't know how to do a lot of things for myself because it was always taken care of. Did you want to leave home? Did you want to come over here? I mean, I feel for you because it was a phone call from Chris Sutton that brought you here. I mean, if that isn't a difficult enough situation, I don't know. But that's what brought you over here and yet you talk about how happy you were there. So I'm wondering whether there was a real conflict for you. No I wanted to be I wanted to be a professional footballer that was always the dream

8:49when you start getting opportunities to go what is the best country in the world to play football in my opinion it is England so when you start getting opportunities to do that you'd be very foolish to turn that down but in the same sense with the Chris Sutton one and the Lincoln one even though I went over it and I did sign the contract which I'm always thankful for Chris Sutton for terminating the contract because he could have either just said no you're our player now and we want money or compensation or whatever but he didn't so I'll always be thankful I done that but timing has to be key as well if I had stayed in England at that time I don't so I'll always be thankful I'd done that but timing has to be key as well

9:25if I had stayed in England at that time I don't think I would have lasted too long in England because I just wasn't ready not football wise, I just wasn't ready as a person Was the key when you eventually did find your footballing intelligence your footballing confidence at Sunderland was the key to that and being able to stay in this country, was that the relationship with Martin O'Neill? Yeah, Martin Martin would always be the person that I would look back and give the biggest I would have the most gratitude towards because he has been the biggest influence in my career. I always felt my best football came under Martin. That first year at Sunderland obviously giving me a debut. The second season

10:15I'm sure we'll speak of it, it was a lot tougher but even we ironed it then. The best football I probably played in my career would have been under the leadership of Martin and that was down to him as a person I was going to say what about him as a person he just makes you he simplifies the game for you and then in terms of just speaking to Martin on a personal level it just made you feel like you were like I was far from the best player in the world but he made you feel like you were the best player in the world and that's unbelievable. He's amazing company is Martin, I think we'd all probably agree on that. I wonder, am I putting two and two together and coming up with five to say because of his background

11:00and being from Northern Ireland did that help did that help him have an understanding of you the the person yeah i would i would say so i think obviously when people come from this the same place especially in a different country you can already have that we better draw on the gallery but where you kind of like drawing together where you're familiarity you're one of our own so maybe that at the start maybe kind of helped build a wee bit of a relationship but I'll be the only Martin to be able to tell you that from his perspective but it's a relationship that I can't speak any highly of the man I think he's a relationship that I can't speak any highly of the man. I think he's a tremendous man

11:47and his passion for the game is still there. He's gone back into the madhouse of Celtic. Third iteration at Celtic. Yeah, where he could have easily walked away at the end of last season, given what he'd done in B. Even his status at Celtic would have been much higher to go back into another season and put that at jeopardy how did you find him and Roy Keane at international level it was brilliant Roy's I would Roy's Jack on height himself I would say like Roy's tremendous respect for Roy like really actually really funny guy one of the funniest people you could spend time with like anybody Roy has his bad days as well. Roy's in bad moods. But in terms of, again, the admiration I have for Roy Keane is unbelievable.

12:33That was one of the things that annoyed me actually in the book because one of the headlines was bust-ups with Roy Keane. Roy's a name, so Roy's going to generate headlines. But if you actually read it, there was no bust-up. No. He wasn't happy with your black Lamborghini, was he? No, but he went and done his research. Because I polled him that morning about a situation that happened in New York. So he's obviously went back and came back. Because it was six years before. Yeah, it was six years before yeah I was like before and I was there nothing that he was in involved them but he went and done his research so when he did come he was able to start off in the front foot but the headline bust up through Roy Keane there was even a bust up in there

13:19main bus stops but obviously Roy's name is can I just say I'm with him I wasn't happy when I read the book about the Black Lamb. I wasn't. I wasn't one of the finest ones. And it was a costly experience at the time. Can we talk about your attitude to money, actually? Because you talk about your first, you know, kind of big flush of cash, which I think was the £5,000 signing on fee, wasn't it? And you went to JD Sports and you couldn't spend it. I mean it i mean you literally you know you can't get out of the shop with enough bags and you could sense that this was a you know somebody who hadn't really thought about money very much actually you wanted to be a professional footballer but the material side of

13:55it was something that you hadn't really thought too much about and then suddenly when you're getting these big contracts the 45 000 pounds a week contracts you you were very generous and and wanting to to share that with people and pay for meals and buy cars and and have a big house that you filled with people that made you feel good there wasn't a lot of financial planning going on at that point was there no there wasn't because we the background that i grew up in and the environment i grew up in there what there wasn't a lot of money so people didn't have a lot of money. So when you come under money, it's a novelty. It's something that you've never had. So again, you don't know how to manage that because you've never had it.

14:37But that first year was chaotic. It was absolutely chaotic because you've gone from, like I said, you've 450 pound a week of dairy where the majority was spent on football boots in the first couple of days and then you're borrowing money for the rest of the month to get through and that becomes a cycle. Delaying, I'd never seen five grand before in my life so I get a five grand sign off. Obviously when you're buying a lot of trade, I went to Foot Locker and I bought a Playstation a TV and I had Sky installed and I was buying trainers with a rest and I still had a lot of money left over so I remember going back to the apartment obviously the TV being put up Sky being set up the Playstation and sitting thinking

15:21I'm an adult now I was almost like I was put some washing up liquid in the dishwasher sitting thinking oh i'm an adult now i was almost like i was i was put some washing up liquid in the dishwasher look at me i'm i'm an adult now like i'm look at me living on my own like did it make did it make you more suspicious of people uh no that that that came down that came down the line right came down the line um because i already knew the kind of my friends and family and the people close to me i always was going to um look after them um so no but down the line obviously you quickly find out who's genuine who's not genuine i mentioned the poppy at the very start of the chat because the beginning of the book i think puts into context know, just how passionate you were about your beliefs and your country.

16:09And you understood the history as well. And what I hadn't realised and clocked was that the first season of you not wearing a poppy went unnoticed. Yeah, because I knew I wasn't going to play so I spoke to Cookie who was the kit man at Sunderland and just said look obviously whatever slight chance I have of coming on like look can you not put a pop in my ear and he was confused to start with, he didn't make a deal, he was a really nice man but this is my point for the second season as well, was because nothing was put out there publicly, there was no story. Sunderland's statement the day before the game, without even consulting me or asking me, they put that out, you just draw the attention.

16:56We wore red and white. Away at Everton, we wore red and white, so the puppy would have basically got heaven. A very eagle-eyed person would have seen it, maybe. But the statement drew the attention. The statement drew all the attention, and not even... Not that the statement... It did draw attention, I'm not getting away from that, but it distanced itself as a club from me in the statement. It doesn't say that, you know, we respect James's values or nothing like that. It was just, we as a club respect blah, blah, blah. This is James's values or nothing like that it was just we as a club respect blah blah blah this is James's personal opinion why did they do that? I think well quite clearly they protect themselves

17:35because then it obviously as that season went on when I wanted to speak about the poppy which thankfully I did get to do at Wigan then they wouldn't allow that to happen they were saying no no no they'd just blow over and again I came off a really good season so the relationship was good I was just turned 23 so I was still young naive immature but I had no reason to believe that the club weren't going to look after me so I trusted their word I think they have a duty i cared why but that that made that made the situation so so much worse and that was the most difficult period in my career until until lately that was the most difficult period that i've had my career um and life and you but the positive from that it's it's made it

18:26made me a more resilient person so that's the positive i can take away from it but at the time it was it was pretty tough did you were you offered help support you were you were on your own i was on my own and by this stage me and aaron were fully exclusive and we had the baby on the way but you think Erin was a bit younger than me as well so we're in this house on our own we're loving this life over here we know friends and family so we were doing that we were managing this alone it was it was horrendous it was it was it was tough because you had death threats yeah i had i had death threats um i had death threats that's going to be shot live on tv the the following game i had police officers outside

19:11me my room that night i had balls sent to the post which were traced back day and army bargs and leads and then that's not to mention all the online threats it was just it was like it was just an absolute chaotic time and without name calling I don't have a very high opinion of your man Craig Hope who was a journalist at the time as well because you would trust these people by giving them interviews and then they would spin it a different way and create headlines which is probably their job and then you'd have conversations on the street or on flights you'd have a genuine nice conversation and then they put it put it on social media and it'd be a completely different context so that along with society in general everyone's got a camera phone now and if you're

19:59in any way in the public eye or have a bit of a name about you people won't they stitch you up it's a sad reality but they do every year they may roll out the exact same story but they rolled out in the sense of as if they're shot every year and you're thinking it's been 13 years guys 14 years like are we are we still doing this and then that just creates another pile on, pile on, pile on. And it's just like, well, it's never going to escape you. Did it come up in conversations with clubs if they were interested in signing you? Did it become such a thing? Yeah, I know for a fact that clubs, good clubs, didn't sign me just because of what they would have had to have dealt with, which is, I don't agree with,

20:50but I can understand it, fair enough. Like even signing for, there was a backlash when I was signing for West Brom. A few fan groups weren't happy. So you know for a fact that clubs didn't sign you? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've seen it with my own eyes, like where messages have been exchanged. And don't get me wrong, it hasn't been blunt and they've been respectful about it, but I can get to probably why they didn't because it does become quite a big issue around every November and having the kind of dress, obviously me not wearing it, and I think it's become bigger and bigger as well, the whole poppy thing over the years. But you did have a chance, as you pointed out when you were at Wigan you had an open letter

21:47to Dave Whelan didn't you? Yeah Wigan were absolutely brilliant Wigan had their reservations as well when I was leaving Sunderland about signing because like I said it was such a new thing that the only grace that I'll ever give Sunderland from that time was it was a new thing so they probably didn't know how to handle it because it was new to everybody. And Wigan had their reservations. Thankfully, I did sign, and it turned out to be, not just football-wise, but just getting my life back on track as well, it turned out to be the best thing ever. And that letter definitely did help. Talk us through that, then. Talk us through that then. Talk us through it. So, obviously what happened from the season before

22:29we were thinking we can't have this again. Is there anything we can do about this? And I was always adamant that I wanted to get my side of the story out because it's very quick to judge without knowing what you're judging. The easiest thing to do is judge. So I think maybe if I get the axles for once, be allowed to speak about what it is, it might give people a better understanding of what they're actually piling in and abusing me on. So, and Wigan were obviously quite open to do that. But obviously the owner being the owner, they thought it was good to address the letter to him because he's head of the club, do it that way. and the letter which is in its entirety is in the book yeah um explains your

23:11historical experiences and your feelings about military and war and why for you personally that was such a uh you know a no-go you couldn't you couldn't allow yourself to be seen to support the same military which had killed no I make it quite clear I still make it quite clearly this day if it was solely both wars the Great Wars yeah I would yes sorry yeah the word war yeah I would have I would no problem done the poppy absolutely no problem but and the royal british legion make it quite clear then this now is the commemorate all wars now that was a very bloody war that happened in in my in my country and in my hometown by both sides by the way like i'm not going to sit here for a second and say that the IRA

24:07and this and that were angels because there was a lot of bloodshed on both sides, but the atrocities that the British Army caused in my hometown and throughout the north of Ireland, then you're now asking me to commemorate and wear a symbol that would commemorate them. I'm sorry, I just can't do that. The same way you wouldn't ask anybody over here, would you wear a symbol commemorating the patriotic day of Ireland? Quite rightfully, they'd say, no, I absolutely wouldn't. That's the exact same thing. We're just on different sides of the fence. So to some extent the experience you had at Wigan and being allowed to show this publicly, did that then take some of the heat? Or allow people to understand you?

24:55Yeah it did, certain people you could put something in front of them as clear as day and they have the view and they don't want to change the view which is fine that's alright so there's people who are just going to dislike me regardless they won't even want to read or if you read them out to them they don't care they hate me that's alright that's the way it is but we played Bolton that night who's obviously Wigan's biggest rivals so the statement out that day we went to Bolton and the support I got who's obviously Wigan's biggest rivals so the statement went out that day we went to Bolton and the support I got even from the people in the tunnel of Bolton saying I've read your letter like I didn't know that

25:34and I know it now respect this and that and that's happened quite a lot where people were like even players when players I thought you were this and that and then you explain your reasons to them and'll feel like and then there's like oh i know i had different perspective you and then you end up balling brilliant relationships so again it's easy to judge someone and something without knowing all the ends do you think there's a i suppose a wider point here that footballers and maybe sports people in general but particularly footballers, male footballers aren't allowed to give their opinions that often by their clubs I would say there's certainness to it but I also think footballers are very selfish.

26:26If it affects my pocket, if it affects my image, am I going to get criticism for this? Oh, absolutely not. I'm going to turn a blind eye and I'll just get on with things. I was very vocal about that recently on the Ireland-Israeli game. I don't think that game should have went ahead. That's my opinion. That's from my perspective. But in the same sense... Would you have pulled out if you were... Oh, yeah, I wouldn't have. Yeah, I definitely wouldn't have been there. And I just think right is right and wrong is wrong. And I think... I would say definitely there was pressure from the FAE to play the game on them. I don't think they're any getting away from that. But when Gavin Bizzuno pulled out, that gave them...

27:12Because their statement from the start was, we're all in this together. So when Gavin pulled out, that was their way out. That was the easy way out to say, look, we're doing this together. But they still chose to go ahead with the game, which I think was wrong. But like I said, that's from my perspective. That doesn't mean my perspective's right. Do you think that there, or do you hear, or had you heard during your career, players expressing strong political opinions or beliefs that you knew they weren't publicly espousing because of the reason you've just said, that it would affect them financially? No, like I said, I just think with footballers, not the political sense, but I've been in so many directions with footballers

28:00where they say, this is poor, this is unacceptable, this and that, but then will just say nothing. They, either management or above management, they'll just accept wrongdoings. They'll complain they're blue in the face behind closed doors of how bad it is, but then they won't ever address it because they're afraid that they might lose their spot or they might affect their image or this and that and they just a male footballer is a very selfish person like that's just the way it is and that's the way it's always been like in terms of I've had so much support through text messages and behind the scenes from players about the pub but never publicly, because it's easy to do it behind closed doors,

28:48because it's not out there for yourself to be in the firing, to be seen to be supportive. Have any of them supported you publicly? I'm trying to think, actually. Kieran Westwood did when he retired. Very easy to do it when you're retired. David Myler's openly said he wish he had done easy to do when you're retired David Myler has openly said he wish he he had it done more to support me while we were playing but he said it was when he was retired so no none's none's done it publicly they might say the usual they respect my view and we're all we'll stand by James and this and that no but they don't and they'll condemn the abuse but that's... Shall we get back on the football pitch? Because we've still got quite a bit to go

29:33and an unravelling coming as well in many ways but we'll get to that. You had a decent time at Wigan and almost found yourself in the MLS playing for the New York Red Bulls, which I think Erin was livid pretty much about, wasn't she? She never let that one go. Because rather than go to New York, you went to... West Brom. West Brom, yeah. It would have been brilliant. But at 26, when you have an opportunity to have another crack at the Premier League, and at that time as well, a well-established Premier League club in West Brom, getting the chance to play under a good manager in Tony, it was a no-brainer, really. He's another one, isn't he? Maybe a bit like Martin, who can be quite fatherly,

30:23I suppose. Yes. As in in he will shout at you if he needs to but he'll put his arm around you as well yeah he was Tony was how great relationship with Tony and we didn't help him the pre-season tour when he said I wasn't the sharpest toe in the box I was just thinking Tony come on you're you're playing under a narrative here like come on you're not you're not helping me in the slightest but he meant it obviously in a joke but no I got quite well with Tony and I still to this day believe that if Tony had stayed in charge that we wouldn't have got relegated Do you think there's a type of manager that you've always warmed to and a type of manager I'm not talking tactical I'm not talking I didn't get on

31:03well with foreign managers I didn't I didn't get on well with foreign managers I didn't I didn't get on really well with Uwe Rasler at Wigan because as much as he was very good tactically his mannerisms was just he would just speak down to you in a way of just like almost in a degrading way and I've still I don't I never responded well to that like Paolo but they can't do lunatic but a nice lunatic but again it was just like he would greet you in the morning he would tap you in the face and you're like telling you what you can and can't eat and just very dictatorship that management's not that long days as well palliative can you always say I do their point he was like he's a professional for those of

31:57privileges or people work on 95 and he would believe that we should be working 95 so there was a lot of days spent at the at the at the training ground but i actually i i don't mind poloway which is i didn't like just don't slap me in the face every morning yeah i just i just i just think it's just very it's very condescending yeah but michael o'neill wasn't a foreign manager so it looked like the perfect fit and at the start it was unbelievable he got the best out of you at the start. No, he did. And then we came back after COVID and there started to be a wee bit of change in Michael. Michael came on to start, stayed in shape. Me and him got on really well. But I think then when Michael got his feet under the table

32:44and got comfortable, well, he does say he this in a group meeting we had individual group meetings because he had the younger players the mid players and the senior players and he did say there's others that can back this up he said when I was manager of Northern Ireland I had to be nice to these players because it was their choice he said with yous yous are here every day I don't have to be nice to you and he didn't if you ask a lot of people that has left Stoke and played under Stoke what's your opinion on Michael they'll have the same opinion Michael was another person Michael was always the attitude I'm the smartest man in the room and he tried to show you that is that the kind of thing

33:32that gets you going yeah he would always even when he's showing clubs he would always try and make you feel stupid in front of the group as if he invented football in his way he's the only way we're all stupid and we're not on Michael's level You say in the book that that kind of stuff is like a red rag to a bull to you because you sleep more easily if you've had the last word No I do, especially if I feel that I'm in the right then I will, like a dog with a bone I won't I won't let it go now just me believing I'm in the right and me being in the right it's obviously two different things as well but in terms of like yeah look I've played under some brilliant managers and I've had managers shout the head at me

34:23over football stuff but that's fair enough but see when you start managers and I've had managers shout the head at me over football stuff but fair enough but see when you start speaking down and there's always a point where people try and make you feel like you're beneath them I don't do well with it I don't like that. Grainger knows. If you're a procurement manager at an industrial manufacturing facility, you're balancing inventory and budget while sourcing critical supplies across the operation. Too much inventory? Cost climb. Too little? Production slows. Grainger's $2 billion in on-hand inventory helps you get what you need when you need it. So you can help keep budgets balanced and lines moving. Call 1-800GRANGER click ranger.com or just stop by granger for the ones who get it done

35:12i think we've over the last 15 minutes we built up a character of somebody who wouldn't necessarily be someone who would love being on camera 24 7 a club that is permanently making a documentary about itself with two hollywood stars but welcome to wrexham what a club i swear it's it's honestly i know my situation is quite tough now at Daryl and coming to the end. But the last few years at Wrexham, if that's my sign-off, then this year, as tough as it's been, it doesn't matter to me. If that's my sign-off in my career, especially in England, then what a way to go. Because it was so much fun because you found the child in yourself the child in myself love football but from top to bottom that club

36:12there's no airs and graces what a club honestly it's everyone comes on every day has a laugh and jokes there's no position of power put it that way no one's above anyone no one's below anyone the club store staff the kitchen staff the owners there's no position of power put it that way and no one's above anyone no one's below anyone the club store staff to the kitchen staff to the owners everyone's just everyone's just it's brilliant and you say about the camera stuff you don't even notice the cameras but they're such nice people as well it's like it's just such a family feeling there's were you set to leave? yeah yeah and it's and I what pains me now is I had 18 months left on my deal so I gave that up

36:50and that eats away at me but I gave it up based on conversations and promises and sentiment erm Aaron's dad had a heart attack which obviously was a major factor in the timing as well but like hindsight is a great thing if I had a time machine and i hadn't known what what was going to be coming and all the false promises came with that would i went home absolutely not i would have loved to be still there and would love to be still there you made good friends with andy cannon which seemed to to surprise Aaron in the book that you forged such a friendship you didn't naturally do that. No I didn't because it's like any other club as much as I get on well with people Wrexham was different in the sense of you hung out with each

37:36other after football it was like I don't know it was just it's there's a certain magic about Wrexham that it's just very hard to explain but Andy, I always describe the dynamic of the friendship with Andy was Shrek and Donkey like Shrek hates Donkey but he ends up just feeling a kind of love for him where he just can't shake him off and he's Are you Shrek in this? I'm Shrek in this Andy's donkey It's just like You just can't shake He's too lovable He's annoying He's literally a man child But you just end up Come on then He just tags along He's a brilliant lad That dressing room Was unbelievable What's but no, he's a brilliant lad and that dressing room was unbelievable. What's being back home been like?

38:31What's not playing football been like? Yeah, very tough. Like I said, the Sunderland time, that was a difficult time in my life. This is equally as different because... Equally as difficult? Equ equally as difficult equally as difficult yeah because a lot of your own now you're turning on you um again because when you're when you're in odds with a club right the club's always going to win so it's always the player that moves on so I've had so I was brought home, I was told part of the reason to come home was we're going to challenge for the title now, we're going to drive standards you're the key in this you're going to drive standards, we want you to drive standards so you and then obviously I was

39:21having conversations about life after football, so that's the timing was key, that's why I went home So you, and then obviously you're having conversations about life after football. So that's, the timing was key. That's why I went home when I did that, because I'm thinking, right, all this here. If I give up now, the opportunities for life after football are going to go away. With the heart attack played a part in that as well, obviously. So going home, you're told all these, and then after a week or two, you're thinking, all these conversations that we've had nothing's changing here so you go then privately and are challenging like is this going to get done better you said we're going to do this, are we going to do this

39:55and quite quickly you realise oh shit, things aren't changing here then I get some so players, when I say about players sitting in dress rooms saying how bad things are and this and that so we had all these conversations in the dress rooms I'm the one I didn't request these by the way I get summoned by the owner two meetings what's going on why haven't we started well and I relay all what's wrong back which then gets held against me um and then like i always do my social media make situations worse right that's what i do i make situations worse frustrations get the better me i go online you can't take it back right but what i always will say and it's not excusing my behavior, there's no reaction without an action.

40:45I've had these conversations so many times behind closed doors where it falls on deaf ears and it's getting held against you. Frustration gets the better of me. Again, I should have kept it internally. There's no getting away from it. It's private matters. We should just remain private. But then they have... Then, because of someone's ego, they come and say to you, you're sacked because you're permanently incapacitated. On the view, on whose view? So then I've been made like a circus animal. Go to this appointment, go to that appointment, go to all this appointment, travel here, there and everywhere. They see this specialist and that specialist, they start repeating. And then for them, as they come back and say,

41:31no, he doesn't need to retire, he's not, he's not. Then for the owner, they say, well, how do I win this? Here, I'll tell you what I'll do. We get a new interim manager and he said to the PFA, who's the players' union, James is not allowed to be selected. i've been told by the hierarchy duty on medical grounds so i won the argument this way i'm the owner of the club he's not playing so you take away my football from me which is all i've known that hurts so i train every single day now i train every single day but i I train every single day. But I'm not allowed to be selected for matches. Tell me how that makes sense. So how am I able to train every day when I'm not allowed to play matches? Even though all the medical reports,

42:13and I have them all, I have the owner's email, have it all, they back up this up. So it's not just my word against us. I have it all. So you've been told you're medically cleared to play football. You play as long as you want. There's something about going home, isn't there, and finishing where you started that feels like it should complete the circle. And for all the ups and downs and the highs and lows of a career, it would be a beautiful, poetic way to finish. But nothing's perfect. No, it's not. And I won't lie to you but that was in the back of my head the Royal Rover stuff coming back helping my home city do a club title which hasn't been done in 30 years but the thing is I'm not getting the

42:54opportunity to show that I can still play football which is what I want to do so just basically based on one man's ego what are you if you're not playing football what are you going to do then? Because I'm guessing you need some kind of... I need a purpose. You need purpose, yeah. Yeah, my purpose... I need a purpose for my training because I love training. I love going to the gym. But you can only do so much of that if there's no end goal. So thankfully, again, the positive has come from this. I love boxing. I've been doing it for 10 years. The last 18 months, I've really thrown myself under it and so I get to do a lot of boxing now a lot more regularly because of I'm not allowed to travel to games I'm not allowed to obviously go to home games

43:37all this I've been told it's better you stay away so if I'm not wanting I'm not going to go to home games so I just focus all my attention on the boxing and that's something I want to do in the short term I mean Mark and I have spoken to so many footballers over the years whose approach to retirement is all so different and people recognise early on that they're going to need structure or they recognise early on they might need some navigation and some way out of their career Graham Barrett in the book says he worries about retirement with you more than most because he thinks you're not ready yet to discuss it. And I know you also, outside of the book, there's been noise about you talking about how talking to a

44:16club psychologist would be a sign of weakness. And Erin has refuted that and she would like you to speak to somebody. Is this the time that you might need to have that candid conversation okay i'm just gonna be honest i know and i i funny enough i spoke with graham uh about this uh last night when we're driving to hotel i'm not worried about what's next because i have a mentality of i know i i can't explain it, I don't know how, but I just know, I'll land on my feet, like I know, I'll find something, like, for me, when I hang up, my football boots, which, won't be, right now, because I'm not, I'm not having that decision made for me, especially when I'm, well capable to continue playing but when I do

45:07eventually hang up the unfit football boots like I said I want to box so that's that's the short term thing and while I'm boxing I can start putting plans in place for what's next I love football I love going and watching football so maybe there's a role in that which I thought watching football and talking there's a role in that which I thought watching football and talking about it on the telly yeah you do it quite well so I don't know if I get to your level just what Gabby said there though Erin's right though talking to someone isn't a weakness is it absolutely not and this is the thing I never said it was I was speaking about my own personal experience because my gym gym is my therapy I feel so much

45:50better for it and like I said before I am quite headstrong but I feel so much better I don't I'm almost being the backlash I'm almost being slaughtered for saying that I'm in a good place where I don't need therapy, they tell me, is that wrong, is that wrong to think that way, but again, the club psychologist, right, is a nice man, I mean I have a laughing joke every day, and people say, oh he bashed his own brother, no I didn't, I said, oh I said it was my brother, when I walked upstairs my brother was speaking to a psychologist. I didn't elaborate any more on that. If you go to therapy and you're a man, you need therapy. Hey, look, all the respect in the world for you. Just because I don't need to.

46:35But then again, I'm no advocate. I'm no spokesperson for mental health. I don't know the rights. Because my perspective is, I feel right now I don't need to go to therapy which I think is a good thing that I'm not in a place where I need to but if you're a man you need to please do my own daughter suffers the the my daughter with autism willow her anxiety and their day she's low like hey go and get help absolutely do you know what I mean just because I do because I don't feel I need it doesn't mean that I'm again I'm right James thank you so much it has been a real joy to spend this this hour with you and and the book really is I think it's so unlike so many football biographies for so many different reasons.

47:28And, you know, for the last few years, I've judged the William Hill Sportsbook of the Year. And I've read a lot of football biographies in the last few years. And this is so different. And obviously, with the backdrop of the politics that has shaped your life and so much of your journey as well. I think it's a unique read. No, thank you very much. Thanks for having me. Thank you to Mark and to James. And of course, his biography, The Walls, is out right now. It is, as I say, an extraordinary read. If you've got a question on that or anything you'd like us to discuss on The Sports Agents, we'd love to hear from you via email. It's thesportsagentsatglobal.com or you can message us on our social media as well,

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