Bonus: Theranos Whistleblower Erika Cheung Reacts to 'You Can See Everything'

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1:20or understanding about what happened, and that it is easy to be fooled. I met Erica Chung face-to-face for the first time about a decade ago in Los Angeles. And you can hear a lot of that conversation in episode four of this podcast. Back then, Erica told us she drank the Kool-Aid before she went to work with Elizabeth at Theranos. She deeply admired Elizabeth and everything she'd read about her in the press. I had read all the articles about Elizabeth Holmes and was completely infatuated about this amazing female entrepreneur who had dropped out of Stanford and started her own company. Erica graduated from UC Berkeley with a degree in molecular and cell biology and went to work at Theranos in a

2:05lab that processed patient samples. She was described by a former Theranos lab director as one of the smartest people he worked with there. And if you've been following this story, you also know Erica was deeply concerned almost immediately by what she saw there. Their quality controls were failing at one point what seemed almost every day. And she tried to raise those concerns many, many times internally, and she was consistently reprimanded. The problems weren't being fixed, and we kept continuously processing patients. Eventually, she became a key witness for the prosecution in Elizabeth's trial. It's been 13 years since Erica first went to work for Theranos, five years since Elizabeth Holmes' criminal trial,

2:57and now just a few days since Elizabeth Holmes came back into her consciousness on the screen in You Can See Everything. From ABC Audio, this is The Dropout. I'm Rebecca Jarvis. Bonus episode. Theranos whistleblower Erica Chung reacts to You Can See Everything. Erica, hello. Hi, Rebecca. Thanks for having me on again. It's great to talk to you. I would say kind of bizarre circumstances here. I want to get right off the bat your first reaction. What was it like watching this film? Oh, what was it like? It's always surreal engaging with anything related to Theranos because I think I'm just so surprised at just how much interest there has been in this case. I think when I first started watching everything, there was a bit of

4:05intrigue because one, I'm always surprised when this case goes back in the media and just how much interest there is. I think I was curious like everyone else was because when I think about this case and I reflect on what happened, there's no simulation that I think about where this could have ended in a good place. So there is and was even some curiosity on my part of like, well, what was she thinking? What was kind of going inside her head? Because there's no way that I could really predict or empathize with how she thought this may have led to something good. And I think, you know, I have been involved in this case for 10 years. It ate up the entirety of my 20s. And I think initially there was this impulse to kind of correct the record,

5:01particularly when she started, you know, talking about the device or talking about what happened in the company. But I think I pulled back from that in a sense to say like, you know, there's clearly no reasoning with this person. And, you know, there's been months and months of federal trials and evidence. And probably about a decade even before I got to the company of people saying, hey, this technology doesn't work and she still doesn't believe it. And I think I've sort of came to the place of like, wow, I wish this person well. Like, I don't know how you can help a situation like that. Like, I'm not trained to be able to help a situation like that if she's really going to double down on the semantics of,

5:55well, can it be possible that this works? Like, it's such a foreign way to think for me. Rebecca, I'd be curious on your side, right? Because you've also been following her for a long time. And, you know, you're a bit more distant than I am, right? Like this was my life. You know, I was running from private investigators. I was scared of lawyers. I was scared of threats. So maybe there is some part of me that needs to have my distance with it because I need to be able to make peace and move forward with my life. But as an outsider who's been so intertwined in this case, seeing how this person has behaved for over a decade and now comes out with this movie, what were your kind of thoughts? Well, I had some similar thoughts to what you shared.

6:46I saw the film with Victoria Thompson and Taylor Dunn, who worked endlessly on this project with me and got to know you as well throughout the process. And I think I walked out of the theater, or I don't think, I walked out of the theater really processing a lot of what I had just seen. But then in addition to processing what was on film, I also was remembering conversations you and I had, conversations I had with people who were misinformed by their Theranos blood tests. And then I even went back, one of my very first thoughts was to the early Apple employees who talked about joining Theranos long before you got there. You mentioned it. You started 10 years into Theranos and it was still very much running like what sort of people maybe imagine as a messy startup,

7:46like everything is everywhere. There's a lot of chaos going on. And yet amidst all of that chaos, there's really high stakes at this point because you are testing clinical samples. Those are real patients. Those are real people. But I thought back to these early Apple employees who were there long before any of that started, and they talked about the casual lying, the fact that Elizabeth would say to them she wasn't in the office when, in fact, she was right down the hall from them, and these are all glass offices, and they can see her in her office sitting there, and they're right down the hallway. And so it really pierced for me some of the things that were said in the film, like the really specific things. I can't remember

8:34a time I have ever lied. Well, in fact, I spoke to countless people who believe that you lied directly to their face about things both large and small. So that was my initial takeaway. But there were, I mean, there was just a lot to process. And I want to talk about a lot of those things with you. I also want to go back to your story and some of the things that you personally experienced, because I think one of the things that you experienced and Tyler Schultz, the other whistleblower, grandson of George Schultz, Theranos board member, who he risked his relationship with his family in many ways to tell the truth. You, Erica, I would argue risked your career, you risked your ability to make money, and you didn't have a safety net there.

9:33And in return for taking that risk, you faced, like you said, cars showing up at your new place of work. There was cruelty at the heart of what you faced after you told the truth about Theranos. Yeah, I think people don't realize the amount of retaliatory behavior that Holmes exhibited, right? And it's very hard if you weren't there and you didn't see it firsthand of how many people were fired, how many people were screamed at, how many people were threatened to lose their jobs. And that was the same case for me, right? Like for me coming forward and sharing my concerns about what was happening with the patient testing, you know, I thought this was me doing my job. And to come back and realize, oh, this company spent $150,000 to hire intelligence agencies and private investigators to follow me when I was 22 years old, because they didn't want to confront that reality

10:49and that bad news. Like, that's just so extreme. Like, there are these things that I think people are unable to see in this film. And my hope, you know, there's this unsettlingness, I think, when I was watching the film, just like you were saying, like, there's so much to process. And I think it was a remarkable job that Lance and Nathan did in making us all realize how vulnerable we are to being deceived by what people say. And I think coming out of it, like we're describing all the former employees, everyone else, the thing that I hope people realize if they're in this position and they're working for a company is it's one thing to pay attention to what people are saying. It's another to pay attention to what they're doing. And that takes

11:36time and that takes just experience with them. And I think Holmes has always been remarkably good at saying things that make you believe her, that make you empathize with her, that make you be inspired by her. But when you really start to get into the details of the way she behaves and the way she treats people, it paints a whole different narrative. And that story gets lost, right? Because the people that were impacted by these things do not have a big deal with A24 where they're able to expose all this. They don't have a comms team of people saying, this is what you need to do in order to share your side of the story. You know, they're everyday people who are just trying to do good at their job.

12:39And in my case, at least I know, I was just trying to improve people's lives, right? I was just trying to help people. I just really wanted to build medical devices. I was really bought into the vision and they weren't doing that. We weren't actively doing that. So I know we kind of bounced around a little bit there, but I was just kind of reflecting on some of the things that you were saying and some of the takeaways from watching it. I felt very unsettled as well, but I thought that was a kind of the beautiful thing about the movie was it made us realize that we can know and have all this evidence that something and someone did something wrong. And yet they're still able to make us challenge our own beliefs or understanding about what happened.

13:21And that it is easy to be fooled and it is easy to have empathy because most people do have empathy. I think it's perfectly acceptable that even if we know someone does something wrong, we don't want to watch them get punished. That's not a natural thing for majority of people. And that can be the difficulty of these types of things. And I like the fact that it's unsettling because I think it requires people to ask these deep questions about what is right and wrong, about how easy can someone get fooled? How much do we hold someone to certain responsibility? What is accountability? You know, it makes people think. And you would hope that out of any documentary you watch, that it could incite that type of experience. And so I, you know, I think Lance

14:15and Nathan and that whole team, they deserve their flowers. I completely agree. Did you see the movie with anyone else or did you go alone? I saw it with my brother and I saw it with my partner. So, yeah, it was good. I think being a boyfriend of someone involved in this case is always challenging because you're like, you know, you want to be protective of me because, you know, I'm in the position. Like, it clearly, even though i'm i have some distance from this case it stirs up right some some trauma of course it will and then of course my brother as well as the same thing like my brothers and my sister have been with me through this whole process right they've been such a cornerstone so um it it was great to watch it with them and

15:06i i think what i i felt good about too is that you know if i watched this show four months ago i would have been in shambles probably to be quite frank with you like this case took a big personal toll on me and my mental health and like feeling safe and just grounded. And the fact that I can watch it now and have the ability to just say like, oh, that's an interesting take, you know, that's, I, it's wild to me. It's a wild take. I don't agree with it clearly, but hey, you know, that's, I, it's wild to me. It's a wild take. I don't agree with it clearly, but hey, you know, if that's your reality, that's your reality. And I can go and then take my kid to the children's museum and have a good time.

15:57We can get ice cream and, you know, I can live a good life and think about, you know, that's, that's a horrible thing. And what I'm going to do from this is not try and make myself look good, but do good and figure out how can I move forward from this experience and help other people, right? And make sure that they don't become victim to these types of situations. And that's a great space to be in personally, that even though it was very hard for me, I've been able to make my peace with it and be able to build a better life for myself and other people. And I think that's the best outcome that anyone could hope from what was a horrible situation for many, many years. We are definitely going to dig into the work that you

16:46are doing now to try to help people who might find themselves in similar situations in the future. But I want to talk to you a little bit about this thing that I always admired about you. You paint the picture. This was your first job. You're 22 years old. It's not like you have a big group of people who you can go to and ask, what should I do? Am I making the right choice right now? You didn't have some kind of safety net, but you still made the decision to tell the truth. Why? It's because of the patience, right? It was the simple fact. Honestly, this blowing up into a big case and all this, I could have never had any insight into that. For me, it was really, we're testing on patients with a faulty product. This product needs to get pulled because it could kill people or could just devastate their lives. And those patients could be my sister. Those patients

17:48could be my mom. Those patients could be me. And as much as I try and rationalize for people, it's very intuitive, right? I was very genuine and I joined Theranos because I wanted to be able to make sure that people received good and affordable healthcare. And when what we were doing was so incongruous with that mission, it's just, I just can't help myself, right? I can't help myself but say something. Even though this whole experience was so hard, it was so easy because it was so clear that this just needed to stop. And, you know, I was so grateful, in fact, for every door that I uncovered to just get people to garner more awareness on. We need to stop. Like the company needs to stop testing patients.

18:43It's just not okay. I wasn't, I was so young at that point. Like I didn't understand what wire fraud was. I didn't understand what patient fraud was. Like I didn't understand what this whole legal apparatus was. It's just the simple fact that like, we know this doesn't work. We can't test this on patients. Like, no, I don't. It's almost hard for me to explain because it's so obvious. It's so obvious. Like that to me is what integrity is. It's not me being morally upright and saying like, I'm here to save the day. It's like, no, we said we were going to do this thing and we're not doing this thing. And worse yet, we're doing the exact opposite. We could kill people. Like, I don't understand how you don't do anything.

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20:24year after year. But what if this year you gave yourself permission to do things differently? Maybe you skip an event you don't have the energy for or take a breath instead of reacting to that comment that always gets under your skin. Those small moments can change how you feel and how you show up for the people you love. That's what growing feels like. Growth Therapy makes finding care easier. Find a licensed therapist who fits your needs. Book your first session in minutes and start in as little as two days. Prepare for holiday glimmers instead of holiday stress. Visit growtherapy.com slash book now. That's growtherapy.com slash book now. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

21:06Your joints help you keep doing what you love. Give them daily support with Ancient Nutrition Multi-Collagen Protein. Two scoops deliver 20 grams of collagen from 10 types, including clinically studied eggshell membrane, plus vitamin C and probiotics to support skin, hair, nails, and joint health. Visit ancientnutrition.com slash protein and use code protein for $15 off. That's ancientnutrition.com code protein. Now that you've had time to process, if you could go back to that moment in time and do or behave any differently than you did, is there anything you would change? I would have reported to regulators sooner and I just didn't know that was an option. So I think I would have done that. I tried to get other

21:58employees to write letters as well, but it's just very hard. It's hard to get people to want to take that type of risk. Another thing is I would have protected myself more. Like I didn't have a lawyer through this process. I didn't want to involve my parents because I didn't want to be a burden on them. I was very isolated and I was very alone. And I think in retrospect, I would have been more conscientious about taking care of myself throughout the process. And I just was like scared. I didn't think I had options for help. And I was like, didn't want to potentially get other people involved that could hurt them. But this is like the lesson of my 30s is I need to get better at asking for help. It might still be a lesson in your 40s. I take it

22:56in a lot frequently as well. But it is an important one. It is an important one. And it's also, you are ambitious, you're high performing. Like the former lab director said, you're one of the smartest people that he worked with there. And that creates its own weight in terms of what you're bringing into the picture. I wonder, in terms of Elizabeth Holmes, is she somebody that you had thought about much in the last couple of years? Was the story, I mean, obviously, it is, you mentioned it, it filled your entire 20s, but you're also a newer mom. Congratulations. Thank you. And you have a life and you're working. So was she somebody that you would think about from time to time? Or did the film bring her back into your

23:54consciousness? You know, I, so there's always the like self protective measure of, oh, when this person comes out of prison, how retaliatory are they going to be towards me? And what do I need to do to ensure that me and my family stay safe? So there's some sentiment around that. I don't think that that will be an issue, at least I hope not. But there's always that percolates in the back of my mind sometimes because I already, even early days, I found, wow, this retaliation is so excessive. I would not put it past them to potentially be retaliatory again. Honestly, I've been more focused on moving forward with my life and investing my time and energy in people that are trying to do good in the world.

24:49You know, I think I've come to a place of like, I wish her well, you know? I wish her well. I think, you know, she is in prison. She is facing the consequence of her actions. I believe everyone deserves the opportunity to have redemption and second chances and rebuild their life and have good relationships with their family and heal the things that have hurt them and everything. And so I genuinely wish her well. It's just hard where seeing someone behave this way, where it's like, I don't know if they're taking that path. Doing a documentary like this, starting a new business in the same field, you know, doing these types of things, it's not suggestive to me that this person has really learned from their mistakes or can even have the humility to admit that they made some. So, um,

25:46I, I wasn't really thinking about it too much, but for me, it's like, I, there's so many things wrapped up into this process for me personally. Like I've, and I don't think this is the right solution for everyone, but it was mine. I had to come to forgiveness with everything that happened. And I, I, I genuinely like, you know, I wish this person, well, like spend that time with your kids, you know, heal those horrible things that happened to you. Like just be well, focus on being well. I get it. And there is so much to process and I appreciate your willingness to have this conversation with me, with us. And there's a lot of dropout listeners who have followed your story and they wish you well and they want to know that you are well. So I think they'll really appreciate hearing from you and hearing about the work that you've done. I am curious because it was a revelation to some degree in

26:47the film that she and her partner are working on a new business in the same space. And I hear what your feelings are sort of towards that idea. But what I'm most curious about is knowing the world that you operated in, Silicon Valley, are there people out there right now who will want to work for Elizabeth Holmes again on a similar venture? Of course there will be. Of course there will be, right? Not only do people have to feed their families and are interested in the prospect of like, hey, I need to make an income, but people, especially in the Valley, kind of have this ethos sometimes, right? Like, oh, well, you failed and then you like can come back and like have this comeback story of building this company that then like proves everyone wrong and you were

27:43the underdog and, you know, this is where you get to show everyone that they were wrong about you. So I think everyone wants to buy in this new narrative of that possibility. So I have no doubts that she will find some subset of people that will buy into her or that will invest in her. It just seems like we've seen this play out in other scenarios too. I think it's the question, is this going to be a successful business? What I know about point of care diagnostics and at least my experience with this person's competency, it's highly unlikely, highly unlikely that that business will take off, in my opinion. And maybe this is more fodder for her to work harder. I don't know. But those aren't the ingredients for success in my mind.

28:36From conversations with you and some of the other people who we got to know along the way with Theranos, there's a degree of chatter happening because of this, because of this film. Have you exchanged messages with any of your former Theranos colleagues? And what are people saying? So I'm actually supposed to meet with Tyler. That's funny. I just realized actually that I didn't tell him. Yeah, I didn't respond back to him. I was supposed to actually talk to him today. You know, there's some chatter. You know, the unfortunate thing, I think people don't realize like the precarious position that whistleblowers are often put in where I think even though you do the right thing, people are uncomfortable in practice with whistleblowers.

29:20So I felt a lot of the people I used to work with kind of distance themselves with me. And there were appropriate times to do that, right? Like I didn't want to get anyone else in trouble and everything else. But sadly, I lost a lot of friendships and contact with people there, even though I cared about them deeply and were close to them. But Tyler and I are going to do a debrief. And if I go to New York, I talk to John and I talk to different people. So, yeah, the door's always open. I'm always willing to have a cup of coffee with people at Theranos and to share those horror stories mostly. This show is sponsored by Progressive Insurance. You're listening to this podcast, so I know you've got a curious mind.

30:08Here's a helpful fact you might not know yet. Drivers who switch and save with Progressive save over $900 on average. Pop over to Progressive.com, answer some questions, and you'll get a quick quote with discounts that are easy to come by. In fact, 99% of their auto customers earn at least one discount. Visit Progressive.com and see if you can enjoy a little cash back. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates, national average 12-month savings of $946 by new customers surveyed who saved with Progressive between June 2024 and May 2025. Potential savings will vary. The holidays have a way of bringing out old habits. Saying yes to every invitation because you feel guilty saying no

30:49or getting pulled into the same family arguments year after year. But what if this year you gave yourself permission to do things differently? Maybe you skip an event you don't have the energy for or take a breath instead of reacting to that comment that always gets under your skin. Those small moments can change how you feel and how you show up for the people you love. That's what growing feels like. Grow Therapy makes finding care easier. Find a licensed therapist who fits your needs. Book your first session in minutes and start in as little as two days. Prepare for holiday glimmers instead of holiday stress. Visit growtherapy.com slash book now. That's growtherapy.com slash book now. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

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32:13use offer code sports to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. You mentioned Tyler, grandson of Theranos board member and former secretary of State George Schultz. He starts just before you. In addition to admiring you, I admire your friendship, you and Tyler, and the fact that you really leaned on each other through the experience. You went there to his grandparents' home to try to convince his 93-year-old grandfather what you and Tyler were actually seeing at Theranos. And obviously that you were seeing something very different than what George Shultz was hearing. Given that you're now working with whistleblowers and towards whistleblower rights. How important do you think it is for people in that circumstance

33:07to have someone that they have a friendship with and allegiance to as they are going through what can be a very lonely experience? How important was it to you that you and Tyler could at least say, what are we seeing? Am I crazy? Because I do think that that's something that comes up, especially when you're young in a workplace and you sort of check yourself sometimes and ask yourself, like, am I crazy or is this whole thing crazy? Yeah, I think, I mean, it's super crucial, right? If it was, I would hope whistleblowing just doesn't exist and that we have more collective action because it's just easier on everyone involved. I was super grateful that Tyler, the medical director, there were other dissenting voices of people

33:57who were coming forward. So even though I was very badly gaslit at various junctures, like I had these other sources of truth that were able to act as these guideposts throughout the process. I will say, and if I can just drop this compliment to, not only did Tyler help me, but Cynthia Cooper, who was the WorldCom whistleblower, was super crucial for me throughout this process. And there's one thing about the acute experience of whistleblowing, but going on trial is madness. It's really difficult. And she called me every Friday to check in and see how I was doing. And that friendship of having someone who had gone through an experience of whistleblowing was super crucial. Like, I don't know how I made it through the trial without her.

34:52How did you and Cynthia Cooper connect? We met through the Certified Fraud Examiners Association. So Cynthia and I connected through there. And I'm also close with Sharon Watkins, who was the Enron whistleblower. So it's funny. It's like we're all different ages, but we'll go on like family vacation every year together. And it's been really critical for me to like find people who have gone through that experience. And there's like a solidarity and community there that I never ever in my life expected I'd be a part of, but I'm very grateful I am. And you are currently working on building awareness of the AI Whistleblower Protection Act. Tell me a little bit more about that and what you're hoping to accomplish.

35:38Yeah, I think, you know, AI is kind of too big of a word, but there are certain risks that are going to come with implementing AI models into all these different industries. And I think just like myself, one of the most effective ways to find out whether these firms are engaging in things that can harm the public and everyday Americans is through whistleblowing and internal reporting. And we really want to get it to a place that a whistleblower doesn't have to choose between their career and doing the right thing. And so Senator Grassley has been a big supporter of whistleblower bills for decades. And we're trying to really push the AI Whistleblower Protection Act with Congress right now and have been doing a lot of advocacy for that

36:26because AI is going to be super pervasive in everything we do. We need to make sure if someone sees something wrong that they'll be protected. And this lowers the barrier for them to speak up if they see something that harms the public. So I'd be appreciative. Again, that goal of asking people for help, this would be really helpful. Are there any scenes that stand out to you from the film the most? Oh, I think her looking at the device and like explaining it where she's basically just says like, and then you put it in the cloud and then the cloud and it's like, oh, so you just don't have local servers. You have a server over there. I think that was very shocking. And that wasn't the device, right? Like the device that they looked at in the film is not

37:19the device you were working with. No, that wasn't the device they were using to test on patients. I think also the, I don't lie. I mean, that's such a bad lie. I think that's what was, I think that was what was so shocking, right? Like, just the hubris. Oh, you've never lied in your life. Even though I think we can all go back to moments in which she said, yeah, I shouldn't have slapped that Pfizer logo, right? I think she said that under oath. Yes, it was in the courtroom. I was sitting right there. I think that was really jarring to me. And I do think there is something to seeing, and I'd hope this, right? Maybe there is to sort of steel man Holmes' position and say, hey, I've been unfairly

38:14treated in these ways. It is good to recognize behind every news story is a human. Of course. Right? And we can have empathy for everyone, even people who do horrible things. And I don't think that is dangerous. There's a lot of commentary around dangerous empathy. I think, no, this is critical to the human experience. You know, it's critical to our humanity is to see the fragility in all of us. And we have to be aware of that. I think sort of the secondary step of that is like, well, where do we draw the line and where your humanity starts to interfere with mine? And how acceptable is it to then go and hurt other people? Because you have this perspective that is widely considered not shared.

39:07I think like re-experiencing that of like behind the headlines, there's still a human person, just like behind the blood samples, there was another human person, right? And being conscientious of that, that there are people who are having real lived experiences that are sometimes beautiful and sometimes an absolute nightmare, and that we could all be more conscientious to the experience of others. Do you have any notes for Nathan Fielder and Lance Oppenheim? Would you tell them anything about their film? I think they did a good job. Like, they deserve their flowers. I think they made people think they did a good job taking people along for the ride of just experiencing another person or at least attempting to.

39:58And I did like the fact that they took this meta approach of like well what was the conflict of trying to be this impartial spectator but you're inherently also involved in how much of this is a performance and how much of it is an actual like factual experience and i think that's a beauty when you bring diverse voices to the table and have these unlikely pairings for situations. You get these really creative, innovative perspectives on a particular topic. So I think they did well. I think with any piece of art, you never know how the public is going to receive that. So I'm sure there's going to be certain narratives that come out of this that I'm not going to be happy with, but that's okay, right? They can't control that.

40:46I can't control that. I think they did a great job. I was impressed. And for three hours, I do not watch movies. I do not watch TV. I'm a big music person. So getting me to watch a movie is actually incredibly difficult. And I was surprised that my own desire to be jittery did not kick in and I was engrossed the whole time. No bathroom breaks. No bathroom breaks, yeah. You mentioned at the beginning of this conversation that you used to have this impulse to correct the record. If you could deliver one message to the people who see this film what is your message one correct the record okay this is a very technical one but i think it's really important because i see this floating around a lot patient fraud is essentially an extension of wire fraud.

41:47It is a financial crime. It is where patients lose money under false pretenses. This does not mean that she did not harm patients. In fact, the testimony of patients coming forward and talking about the distress they experience should be enough to really show people that yes, patients were affected by what was happening with the company. The fact that CMS came in and told them that they could not process patient samples and that they were putting people's lives in immediate jeopardy is enough. and say, hey, this is morally wrong, that doesn't necessarily mean we have the legal infrastructure to have accountability for those claims that we say are wrong. Young people, this is a good opportunity for you to act. You can change this. But I see a lot of people say, well,

42:58she wasn't charged for the patient counts. And it's like, you have to understand this is a very specific legal construction. And I think there's a mountain of evidence. And not only that, but the company destroyed the database to figure out who all the patients were that were impacted. And that is the one thing I'd want to correct the record on, right? That she wasn't culpable in harming patients. And it's this thing that is very easy to not fit into a soundbite, but it's something that people need to be aware of. You raise a really valuable point because there were so many patients that I spoke to over the years who were misinformed by their Theranos blood tests. Paul of Sharda, who thought he was pre-diabetic. Sherry Ackert, who thought her breast cancer

43:53had returned. On the stand at trial, a patient who thought he had prostate cancer. A woman who thought she was miscarrying, all of those tests from Theranos were inaccurate. And while the counts that you mentioned were not, she wasn't found guilty of the specific wire fraud, those individuals all felt the impact of that. And it goes back to how you felt in the lab, looking at the fact that you were working with actual patient data, processing actual patient information. What's your hope for the future, Erica? Oh, so many hopes i i think coming out of this one of the big hopes that i have for people is that you can seize these cases where horrible things happen and it doesn't create disillusionment

44:57amongst people but it shows people that there are opportunities in which we can do better and that we don't let people try and put us down when, right? That there are still great fights to keep fighting and that these salient examples are salient unless we let them become the norm. And preventing them from becoming the norm takes effort. It takes action. It takes engagement. It takes the belief in something bigger and better than ourselves and the belief in, you know, the people who want to do good in the world. So, you know, that's my hope coming out of a case that I think we can look at this and we're like, wow, this is so disheartening. But I hope they see that there's also an opportunity to participate and to say,

45:51hey, no, we had this one setback, but let's keep pushing forward. There's still the opportunity to do a lot of good. And where you have these one or two outliers of people who are in it for themselves, that there's a whole community of people who are really mobilizing to help other people. So I suppose that's my hope. What do you say to the argument that it's really expensive to revolutionize healthcare and you're not going to get a lot of people engaged or interested in your product or your business if you're not showing them some kind of results. But you're also not going to keep going. You won't get to keep iterating and learning and growing and doing something better if that money isn't flowing in.

46:39So you have to bend the rules. You have to tell the best story. I think you can tell a story of what's possible, but there's still a line to be drawn into saying, hey, I have revenue generating contracts that I don't actually have, right? Hey, I have a product that doesn't work, but I'm still going to test on patience, right? And I think entrepreneurs specifically need to understand where do they draw those boundaries? A vision is a beautiful thing. The possibilities of where we can go in the world, those are beautiful things. But I think when we deal with the Theranos case, it's very different than, hey, I'm going to treat you like a lab rat and test on you with this thing that doesn't work.

47:21And even though you're instilling your trust in me, I'm going to abuse that trust and give you wrong results. So I can see that argument and I understand where people are going, but I think you have to put that argument in an appropriate context and not necessarily leverage that in a way to license bad behavior. Erica Chung, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you, Rebecca. A representative for Elizabeth Holmes tells us the company her partner, Billy Evans, discussed in the film called Hey Manthus is, quote, a totally him project. She has had zero involvement, and that Elizabeth will be working on her ideas separately. This episode was produced by me and Taylor Dunn. It was edited by Evan Viola.

48:38Special thanks to Victoria Thompson, the other producer on our team who's been there from the beginning. And thanks to Maddie O'Callaghan and the ABC audio team. And thanks to all of you who've been there from the beginning. And thanks to Matty O'Callaghan and the ABC Audio team. And thanks to all of you who've been listening along for all these years. This show is sponsored by Progressive Insurance. Insurance isn't one size fits all. That's why drivers have enjoyed Progressive's Name Your Price tool for years now. With the Name Your Price tool, you tell them what you want to pay, and they'll show you options that fit your budget. So whether you're picking out your first policy or just looking for something that works better for you and your family, they make it easy to see your options. Visit Progressive.com to find a rate that works for you with the Name Your Price tool.

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