No Such Thing As Going To Spoiler Prison

0:00Stop the podcast! Hi everybody, we are sponsored this week by Progressive. That's right. So, everyone talks about how challenging it is to raise kids, but what about protecting them? I'm talking outlet covers, kitchen cabinet locks, baby gates. Where do you even start? Yes, it is a nightmare. Well, protecting your home and your auto is a great place to start. Progressive offers customised coverage options so you can be sure you have the right coverage for you and your loved ones. They're basically the outlet covers, kitchen cabinet locks, and baby gates of insurance. Don't wait, get your quote today at progressive.com. Progressive casualty insurance company affiliates and other insurers, not available in all states.

0:39On with the show. This is Hoda Kotb from Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb. Okay. Have you ever showed up late to the game and your friends already saved you a seat, your drink, even a plate? That's looking out. That's having your back. And that's exactly what AT&T does with the AT&T guarantee. They know staying connected matters. So they actually guarantee a network that comes through when it counts. AT&T has connectivity you can depend on, or they'll proactively make it right. Just like that friend who takes care of things before you even ask. AT&T, connecting changes everything. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.com slash guarantee for details. Hey, everyone. Welcome to this week's episode of Fish, where today James Harkin is away and we are joined by one of the juggernauts of British television.

1:34It is the writer, producer, Russell T. Davis. You'll know his work if you've watched any British television over the last 20 plus years, starting with Queer as Folk. He did It's a Sin, Years and Years, an amazing futuristic show. And of course, he was the head showrunner of the reboot of Doctor Who. Amazing character. We were so excited he was up for coming on the show. And he has a new book out, which is his autobiography. So if you have any interest in the world of TV, what it's like making it, what it's like going into productions and doing all the scripts, this is the book for you. Because it's not just his time in Doctor Who and all the other shows I mentioned. There's other things like

2:13Casanova, which we talk about in this episode. And it's out now. In fact, I saw a copy of it in a bookshop just this morning on my way in here. So go get yourself a copy. I hope you enjoy the show. It's a bit raunchy. The first fact, just a heads up if you've got kids with you listening. I should add as well, if you're a member of Club Fish, you're going to have an XL version of this episode. And there's a lot more anecdotes from his life in TV in there. So if you want to get the full version of this show, go to patreon.com slash clubfish. And you can find that there. Otherwise, please enjoy the show and on with the podcast. Hello and welcome to another episode of No Such Thing as a Fish, a weekly podcast coming to you from the QI offices in Hoburn.

3:07My name is Dan Schreiber. I'm sitting here with Anna Tyshinsky, Andrew Hunter-Murray, and Russell T. Davis. And once again, we have gathered around the microphones with our four favorite facts from the last seven days. And in no particular order, here we go. Starting with fact number one, and that is Russell. Casanova wrote his, it's called a memoir, it's a massive, massive autobiography, some pages of which are on pages watermarked with love hearts. There's a thing. Because he was such a romantic guy. Well, was he? Is that a thing? I wrote a Casanova television series starring David Tennant many years ago, 2003, 2004. 2005. And I had to read all 12 volumes of that autobiography, which was long.

3:51Wow. Marvelously. It had just come out in paperback, and the paperback version has a portrait of a naked lady along the spine. So you need all 12 volumes to get the lady. A bit like the... The Mr. Man. Exactly. Or you do that with like the MCU or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Full Spider-Man across all the spines. So for prudish people, they can take the boobs, take volume seven and three out. Basically, I couldn't look upon them, obviously. And that's long. Let me say that's a long autobiography. Is it? I mean, I think the thing is about Casanova is that he's not that remarkable. He's remarkable because he wrote it down. Yes. Because he wrote his life down. It was quite a life, I've got to say.

4:30He never lived anyway, never settled. He wandered all over Europe and so gave us great insights into so many different countries and places. But all the sexual law of the time, everyone was at it. Yes. Everyone was at it. He's not the great lover. He's not. Everyone was having sex at the rate. Everyone was at it. Yes. Everyone was at it. He's not the great lover. He's not. Everyone was having sex at the rate that Casanova was. Nuns, priests, everyone. And he just happened to write it down. I mean, because I read a review that was like, you know, by some counts, his sex count was up to about 135 different women, somewhere between 120 and 135. And then this review said, which was a lot by standards of the day.

5:05And I was thinking, that's a fuck of a lot now, guys. But you're saying everyone else is doing that, don't you? I don't think it was a lot by the standards of the day. I think literally everyone's at it. It's incredibly sexualised. It'd be amazing to really try and really portray what that was really like. Except that also there's no age of consent. It would kind of be untransmissible. You'd have to show it on the dark side of the moon once and that would be it to get to get the full story of what it was like that count is not a high count i've read hollywood biographies where warren beatty i remember he has a count that's in the thousands i don't know how many thousands but i do remember doing a calculation at the time and i worked out that he had had more sex with different women than I'd had

5:45breakfasts not even hot breakfasts at the same time so can I ask about the paper with the love hearts on it um I read that they basically were largely unnoticed because they were watermarked and in the hundreds of years since it was written it's slightly faded so if you hold it up to the light you can see these love hearts that are on it. I thought that this was like novelty paper, but I think they're not quite sure if he intentionally used that paper or not. I don't believe he chose that paper because they're not particularly romantic books. Yes. And he's not romantically swaggering through Europe. I mean, he will fall in love with a woman every other day and then pledge his truth and then head off somewhere else.

6:24But it doesn't have hearts pulsating in it, I wouldn't have thought. I doubt that, I've got to say. I think towards the end he lived to 73 or something. It was a very long age for a man in those periods. Well, it keeps you young, doesn't it? Exactly. He's the proof. And he was a librarian, a castle at the end of his life, really badly treated. He wasn the proof. And he was a librarian in a castle at the end of his life, really badly treated. He wasn't the man of legend then, as most people aren't in their lives. So I would have thought he'd grab any piece of paper he could use. I don't think he was rich enough to have chosen. I think he was just scribbling away. And also, he wasn't writing consciously something about love

7:03and women and sex. Although I do enjoy now that every review about him feels obliged to say there was so much more to Casanova than just the shagging. And when you read about him, it was still a lot of shagging. Whether or not some of you think that 135 isn't a high number, I'm going to say a lot of extreme shagging. We should actually cover it. Extreme shagging. What's that? I would say one example of extreme shagging is shagging your daughter. I think we would agree. In his defence, it wasn't like he was a stay-at-home dad, so it's not like... You mean illegal shagging. That's what I mean. I think you've mixed up your words there. You're all right, my client was participating in extreme shagging, nothing further.

7:46Well, the spin is. And tell me if it seems sympathetic in the reading of the book. Basically, this was his daughter by a woman that he'd shagged. And she really wanted to help out her own husband by getting pregnant. Because he, as all husbands were, was very keen for her to get pregnant with a son. And Casanova, her loving father, said, I'll help you out. And impregnated her to do her a son. And Casanova, her loving father, said, I'll help you out. And impregnated her to do her a favour. Did he know that she was his daughter, though? Yep. Right. I've got to say, because I have read all 12 volumes and I read them diligently, and it's so constant and endless, I can't even remember that. You'd think that would be the standout moment

8:20in your memoir, wouldn't it? If that was any of us, like, wow, that chapter's amazing. Actually, it's constantly that. It kind of wears you down. It didn't keep me young, kept me old. I was exhausted by the end of it. Can I present a theory? So this is a librarian at the end of his life, isn't he? And I knew him principally as a librarian. I'm a bit shocked to hear about all this stuff, to be honest. But as you say, it's unending. He loses his virginity at the age of 16 to two sisters and then they all have some bread and cheese he's so attractive he's going everywhere he's having these amazing adventures is there a chance this is an elderly librarian who's making it up I just wonder because it's so picaresque

8:57I know he was a real person because there are accounts of him meeting Catherine the Great I think it would be more entertaining I think because actually it's kind of incessant. And at the same time, he'll tell you exactly how many crayfish he ate that day. A lot of crayfish. It's crayfish mad. And I think he's got the most astonishing memory. Every bloody carriage he travelled in, every scent that he gave to a gatekeeper is in there. So I think when you sum it up, if you read the little slim paperback version, then that sounds exotic and marvellous and maybe made up. In the full length of it, it's constant and not sexy and not particularly masturbatory either. It would be better if it was. We'd have better fantasy than that.

9:36So I kind of believe it. The extraordinary thing is, I thought the same. I thought, come on, some of it can't be true. It's mad. But they have matched up everything they can match up. Every single ferry train he match up every single ferry train he took every single hotel he stayed in every like castle he entered they have a record of him going there his one of the famous things about him that's not sexy is his amazing prison escape and you read his account of that and you think that's amazing it can't be true you know he'd shipped away a piece of iron with a bit of marble that he found, made a hole in his ceiling, got caught. So then communicated secretly, I think, with a friar elsewhere in the prison, hiding messages and books, convinced him to chip a hole in his ceiling.

10:13They broke out. They crept along the ceiling of a palace, fell through a window or whatever, a skylight. And then they're met by a security guard. And Casanova just says, I can't believe you've locked me in here all night after last night's party. Let me out immediately. And the security guard believes him and he's let out. And all of that is just, I mean, that is the Count of Monte Cristo style. But we know we've got the records of the prison escape. We've got the hole in the ceiling. And when you sum it up like that, it sounds a lot more entertaining than it does when you read it. It's like you live through every chip in that room. It goes on and on and on. It's like you live through every chip in that roof.

10:46It goes on and on and on. He's not one for self-editing. That's incredible. I believe it. I do believe it. He sounds like a bore. Do you think he just bored women into submission? He sounds like actually he was quite tedious going on and on. They were all at it. Everyone was doing it. Everyone was boring everyone in both senses of the word. It was all going on. It was a highly sexualized world. Apparently he wasn't a bad character. I mean, who knows? But I read accounts of where he would sleep with a lot of sex workers and he would not sleep with certain prostitutes if they didn't speak his language because he thought post-sex chat was really important. So who are you? I want to get to know you. He talked to women. Yes, yes, yes, he did. if they didn't speak his language because he thought post-sex chat was really important.

11:25So who are you? I want to get to know you. He talked to women. Yes, yes, yes, he did, he did. That's why when I did, I'm bringing it back to my version of Casanova, but I gave him a son on whom all the legends and the bad legends and the bad reputation he did were piled on top of. So that became the Casanova of legend was he actually was all right. Right. He was all right. He was just a man. Although he wasn't, I really wanted to like him, you know? I really wanted to find him a harmless, lovable rogue. There we go. I found his tone quite cruel. I found that he could be very callous with what he said about human beings. You know, there's someone who dies basically because of him. And he's like, you know, doing the shit.

12:02There's, you know, he thinks, oh, God, I wish I killed him, but I needed him to get out. So if you're out there thinking he was a gentle soul who you could have converted, I think he had a hardness to him. I think that was the world. I think, oh, I'll kill him. He's dead, he's gone, I think. Did they think and feel differently? Did they? And I think maybe they do. Because he's never brought up for that. No one chastises him for that. He's never punished. He's punished for a million things like witchcraft and all sorts of blasphemy and stuff, but never for that, never for lack of feeling. Is he in prison for sexual misdemeanor? Offending. He must have pissed people off, I think. There was a bit of black magic, wasn't there,

12:36or something they said. Offending, yeah, religion and public morals. Yes. Oh, okay. They made up the black magic. Yeah, yeah. Because he's offended my morals with the thing with his daughter. So, like... Well, exactly. But a different world. Yeah, yeah. It wasn't then. You just don't like extreme shagging. That's your problem. I guess. You'll have to ask my wife, all right? Do you know the reason the memoirs came around is as a result of a prescription given to him by his doctor. So, you know the old gag of Grimaldi going to see a doctor and he says you should cheer yourself up for seeing Grimaldi. I am Grimaldi. Does his doctor say to him, you should try shagging Casanova? I'll cheer you up, but doctor.

13:15No, it's not quite the parallel I was intending. He was seeing his doctor for depression and he was feeling melancholy and he said, you know what you should do? You've had this amazing life. Go sit and write it and that's going to make you happy again and he did and apparently he was laughing and laughing he could be here cheering himself up and hence why it's probably so detailed and so long he was fighting a depression um and he does only reach the age of 35 or something in in the biography and i'm kind of glad he died when he did or there would be 24 volumes apparently it stops on a final line. It doesn't conclude itself. I think so. It's like drop down dead. Yeah, which is interesting. There's another story about him and a doctor.

13:52Not the thing about him having depression and being told write your memoirs. This is when he meets a stranger and the stranger says, thank you, Casanova. You saved me. You saved my career. Casanova says, what do you mean? And this guy was a surgeon and he spent years in poverty. He didn't get enough business at all. saved me you saved my career yeah Casanova says what do you mean and this guy was a surgeon and he spent years in poverty he didn't get enough business at all then Casanova passed through town and gave so many people gonorrhea that this doctor's this doctor's career which he's had a very busy year and it was it completely saved his career and he said um but of course it's died out

14:23now and I don't suppose um I don't suppose you could possibly see your way through. And he didn't have it this time, so he wasn't able to oblige. Yet what can I give them? Give my gonorrhoea. Wow. I know. I kind of leapt into that autobiography, dying to write the moment where surely a man that sexual and that sexualized would have sex with a man. Never happened. Right. And I really thought it would. I really thought if you're that open and all the society's at it like they were. And no, no, no, no. I'll be proved wrong by some scholar and I'll probably skip some pages. No, no, no. But there is a bit with Bellino, isn't there? Yes. A male castrato singer with whom Casanova falls in love. And Casanova's astonished because he's, you know,

15:07he's, is it a ladies' man or a man's man? Yeah. It's the one, you know, he's convinced that he was never, ever attracted to men. And he became convinced that Bellino was actually a girl in disguise. Gropes Bellino feels the sausage. Turns out it's a fake sausage. Bellino is a girl in disguise. Casanova's reputation for being totally 101% straight, unimpeached. Yeah. And it's a bit like a Shakespeare play as well. Let's be honest. It's genuine. It's a phallus made of smooth guts around a piece of hide. Really? Lovely. Smooth guts is my drag name. At the same time, I can say. What was so interesting about the story you were telling, Anna, about how he broke out of jail, is that final line is such a great little plot twist. And in my head, I'm hearing it as Casanova, but I'm also hearing it as a Doctor Who.

15:54And I think that's because the only Casanova I know and have ever seen is David Tennant. Is Mr. David Tennant. But it does feel very Doctor Who-y in the kind of chaotic nature of an escape. And then there being just such a simple, finey comic twist at the end. Were there previous ones? Like, I imagine because the 40s and 50s were a more straight-laced time there wouldn't have been a kind of Basil Rathbone Casanova. Oh, Frank Finlay did it in the 60s and I think that was quite... I think it was like a Dennis Potter Casanova I think. It was very dark. You look at it now, it looks very dark and very heavy and I didn't watch much of it. I think. It was very dark. You look at it now, it looks very dark and very heavy.

16:26And I didn't watch much of it. I think it was much more of a treatise on male darkness by the look of it. Frank Finlay? Yeah, Frank Finlay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's interesting because you had two Casanovas in there. You had David Tennant, but you also had Peter O'Toole. I did, yes. Which, playing old Casanova, sort of telling the story. I love your meeting with him in the book. Oh, the story of the meeting. Yes, yes, yes. That was a great meeting. I was... How much can we swear on this podcast? We'll bleep it, so do it. Okay. It's like me and the director were summoned to Peter O'Toole, like three days before filming, summoned to Peter O'Toole's suite in the Midland Hotel. And he's there in full grandiosity going,

17:02You c***s. You absolute f***ing c***s. I'm like, whoa, hello? And there had been some rewrites issued. You f***ing ruined this. You f***ing, are you stupid? And I've got to say, it was more aimed at her because I think coming from a film background, he had no concept that writers existed. It was all about the director. And so I kind of didn't get the full blast. Portrait got the full blast, but I was kind of loving it. That's what I feel like. I feel like that's almost a perfect Peter Hitchcock. It was like a Sunday morning or something and I was being called a cunt by Peter Hitchcock. It's kind of what you want him to be like. It was just what you want and I loved it. But the point was also,

17:43we couldn't work out what was wrong because we'd issued some rewrites and they were harmless. These rewrites sort of said, I'll go to Venice instead of I'll go to Rome. And then I kind of realised he's in his 70s. He's learnt it. And his head's gone into a complete panic. So I thought, how about if we take all these rear-ends and just get rid of them? Exactly. Fine, get out. I thought it was going to be that he had had the impression he was going to be playing young, sexy Casanova and he had only just clocked. Can you imagine? An old, decrepit librarian. What are you talking about? Oh my God, that would be brilliant. Okay, that's the story I'll tell from now on. That's a much better version.

18:29Hi, everybody. We are sponsored this week by Progressive. That's right. So everyone talks about how challenging it is to raise kids. But what about protecting them? I'm talking outlet covers, kitchen cabinet locks, baby gates. Where do you even start? Yes, it is a nightmare. Well, protecting your home and your auto is a great place to start. Progressive offers customised coverage options so you can be sure you have the right coverage for you and your loved ones. They're basically the outlet covers, kitchen cabinet locks and baby gates of insurance. Don't wait, get your quote today at Progressive.com. Progressive casualualty Insurance Company affiliates and other insurers. Not available in all states.

19:06On with the show. Stop the podcast. Hi, everyone. Today, we are sponsored by NordVPN. That's right. NordVPN, the all-in-one digital security app that gives you advanced protection when you're online. That's right. So, Dan, how do you protect yourself from the sun? I don't. I stay indoors. I have not been out for 27 years. Okay, and how do you protect yourself from your sun? Ah, I do that. So you've got to go outside to get away from it, haven't you? Yeah, I'm in a real dilemma. It's the sun or the sun, and I lose either way. Okay, final question. How do you protect yourself from online scams, Dan? NordVPN, of course, Anna. Of course. NordVPN's next-gen antivirus, I assume you mean, that blocks scams and phishing before they reach you. It's a wonderful

19:58thing that you should have as part of your security system when online. It is. Upgrade your online protection with an all-in-one security app by getting an exclusive NordVPN deal and four months extra. Go to nordvpn.com slash fish. And that's risk-free because there's a 30-day money-back guarantee. Okay, do it now. On with the show. Okay, it is time for fact number two, and that is Andy. My fact is, anyone working on an American TV show needs to know these colours in this order. White, blue, pink, yellow, green, goldenrod, buff, salmon and cherry. That's not just American, that's British. Really? It's in the same colours in Britain. Yes, well, I think the order's that. Yes, yes, yes, that's like, yes.

20:51I'm so glad to be here to correct you. Dream come true. To come and say, you fools. Should we just go back to episode one? Edit me into them all? I think you'll find. That is so annoying. No, but we have that, we have that. So this is, yeah, sorry. It's so annoying. No, but we have that. We have that. It's universal. Well, it's because actually the software is kind of universal. There's one form of software that everyone uses. And it might as well be a monopoly because everyone works off it. And then once everyone works off it, every office works off it. So therefore, if you're handing in a script, do it in final draft. So they've got the whole thing stitched up. And just to explain for those outside the industry, because it in final draft. So they've got the whole thing stitched up. And just to explain for those outside the industry,

21:26because it's quite an interesting system. It's basically for script rewrites, right? So when you're on a TV set, things are constantly being rewritten and tweaked. And I can totally imagine, I've had this writing QI scripts as well, because we never came up with this system, where you have no idea which version is which, and someone might be working off one version, and someone might be three versions ahead. So this is the order of the colours of scripts which tell you which version is which and someone might be working off one version and someone might be three versions ahead. So this is the order of the colours of scripts which tell you which version you're on. Every new colour is a revision.

21:51Yeah. And yet one of the colours is goldenrod, a colour that no one has ever heard of. Is that golden? Yes. Why don't they just call it gold? Yeah. The name isn't really gold. It's just kind of orange or yellow. But I don't know how those names ever came about no weird and the funny thing is it's like you have to go through those colours if you change one word then the and then if you change another word a day later you've got to go up a colour really it's like because if you if you change a field to a tavern it's as simple as one word meet you in the field we haven't got a field meet you in the tavern that goes to a pink page and if the next day someone says to you oh we've changed location the tavern's going back to a field you can't go back to a pink page and if the next day someone says to you oh we've changed location

22:25the tavern's going back to a field you can't go back into that pink page because it's been issued then you go to blue or whatever order it is blue, pink, blah blah blah really hope there was one revised version of Casanova where the pages came in the only change is young Casanova Peter O'Toole exactly and you go through so many changes by the time you there's six or seven of them by the time you've been through them all, then you go double blue, double pink, double golden. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can even get to triple. But everyone on a set is used to it. It genuinely works. On the front of the page of the script, it'll say what colour you're on. So if you're all up to golden on that day,

23:00it means if someone's working off the blue page on that set, they're on the wrong one. Yeah, it's such a good system. That's where we get the phrase, I'm on the same page as you. That's where it comes from. There you go. It used to be I'm on the same colour page, but it just got shortened, didn't it? It just snapped in, yeah. Can I ask, Russell, have you ever been involved with either self-destructing scripts or fake scenes in order to prevent against the possibility of leaks? Oh, not, what's a self-destructing scripts or fake scenes in order to prevent against the possibility of leaks. Oh, not... What's a self-destructing script? I think it's a digital version that they then delete off your iPad.

23:33Oh, right. It was the Avengers movies. It would be that after a time... I was once approached by a kind of Spider-Man spin-off for television and the security process was so long I gave up. I went, I'm not doing that. I can't bear it. I genuinely went I mean, I might not have ever got the job but they wanted me to submit and it was related to Spider-Man in some way the Spider-Family or something. Honestly, after sitting there for 20 minutes and still not getting through security I just went, fuck this. I'm not going to do that. What do you mean? Digital security? Yes, digital. Just to get to read what they'd sent me. What they'd sent me was behind so many barriers and required so many emails and so many passwords.

24:11And of course, famously, never mind all those colours, they then print those scripts on red paper so that can't be photocopied. Oh, okay, right. Couldn't it? Yeah, apparently. Christopher Nolan, I think, does the same kind of thing with his film script. So this is very interesting. You have to have, sometimes you're not allowed a work email Can it? Yeah, apparently. Christopher Nolan, I think, does the same kind of thing. So this is very interesting. You have to have, sometimes you're not allowed a work email or a personal email. You have to have your own new email set up and then go through two layers of two digit. I've never been there because I just went, life's too short. It just sounds crackers.

24:39Can't be bothered. So I spoke to one of the writers on the show Succession. Oh, yeah. And I asked, did you ever do things like fake scenes or fake plot lines or whatever it might be to throw off people who were leaking? Yeah. And this writer said, no, absolutely not. The idea that we would have had the time or the capacity, we could barely do the actors got a bit distressed by the fact they didn't know what was coming next because you might be writing an episode while you're filming the previous episode i mean it's you know it's tight when yeah they want 10 new episodes a year or whatever and this actually happened and i i can't say who it was but there was a moment where the writers realized one of the actors in succession was getting early scripts from somewhere

25:26and there was a leaker who was not leaking it to the public, but there was some kind of internal black market within succession so that one particular performer could get the scripts very early. And the writer looked through and saw, oh my God, hang on, that's a script that I haven't finished yet. How do you have that? And some kind of system, unclear. that's hang on that's a script that I haven't finished yet how do you have that and then somehow some kind of system unclear they had to sort of do a mole hunt though for I think who I was leaking the script internally yeah yeah yeah it's like we faced that on that last on our last two series of Doctor Who absolutely every single thing this is in the book

26:01no way but every little every little nice surprise you put in not just big parts but every little nuance the book. But every little nice surprise you put in, not just big parts, but every little nuance, every little cameo, every little thing you put in, everything leaked. And they have vast security systems at the BBC. Well, they actually found the person who was leaking the information, but he was a member of the public. And you can't actually go in and arrest a member of the public. I'd say, why can't we? If that's my copyright, actually, that's theft in my eyes. But I don't think the BBC ever liked to arrest a person for theft because the BBC is not going to come out of that very well, I think.

26:34Is that still burning in you slightly to work out who it is? Because behind that, that person is obviously friends with someone, somewhere involved with Doctor Who who was leaking every single thing. And, you know, will I go to the grave and never know who it was? And it might be someone I stood next to every single day. Oh, my God. Or it's more likely to be someone sitting in an office who might be on the desk at the back whilst all the technical processes these things go through. And whoever it was is probably sitting there masturbating furiously to this podcast. Have a nice time. We get a lot of that. Narrow it down. But with a Dalek hat. Yeah. Why do you? It's so confusing. Is it a deliberate thing or is it just you accidentally got drunk and you told your friend everything?

27:18Oh, no, it's power. No, it's absolutely deliberate and consistent. And it's a power game. But also, I also think it's genuinely malicious. Because I think it does, I mean, it's not the most destructive thing in the world, but it's slightly destructive and no program needs anything slightly destructive. Because then you're in a chain where that then, you know, that might transmit to just 20,000 Doctor Who fans. That's fine. But they've all had it spoiled. And also you've got to look at the, when you get something spoiled, your reaction to it, it's got the word spoiler in it for a reason. It's not an enhancer, is it? It's a spoiler. Yeah. I absolutely think it's theft. And that's why I'm surprised we don't go further with it,

27:58except actually it's so widespread throughout all fandoms and all television shows that if you start to imprison these people who are leaking, my God, the prison population will be in crisis. Although fun on the wings. Great conversations. Spoiler prison would be good, though. Everyone's in for spoiling a different show. Amazing. They're not creative, that would be. And then you just put a big sign on the building called BBC. But the one thing they don't say is what they're in for. So this is spoilers. I'm just going to hold that off. It is extreme. I'll tell you that much. We did a fact a long time ago on the show, Russell, which was about Dallas and the fact that who shot J.R. was the big question that dominated American society at that time, right?

28:40And they filmed every cast member shooting J.R. Including the cameramen, including the catering staff they all came in and had a guy went shooting him so that that wouldn't leak but um yeah but you never sorry and who was it uh oh i don't know it was kirsten come on how could you not know that i was about to think it was maggie simpson i just remember fake scenes that i have written which are doctor scenes, so your click base will go mad. So bear me out. Which is that we were once told that the Queen wanted to visit the set of Doctor Who, and that would be enormously prestigious for everyone. How marvellous. But she was only going to Swansea. So our head of drama, Julie Gardner, was told, and she was not allowed to tell anyone,

29:23for security reasons, which kind of makes sense. And so the only person she could tell was me. So in the middle of a shoot, she said, you've got to invent a scene set in Swansea in the middle of this episode that we go to Swansea and shoot. And then it's like, oh, that's the royal visit that day. So then we can arrange that. But you can't tell anyone. So we couldn't tell the producer or the locations guy or stuff like that. So I suddenly issue this pink page with a scene where the TARDIS land and it has to be in, no one could say, oh, let's shoot this in Cardiff. So it's like it arrived on the Swansea seafront in the middle of an adventure where the doctor's stepping up and saying, there's the mumbles, it must be this.

30:03And the entire production team's sitting there going, why have you done this? We can't afford this. The producer's like going, we can't have a day in Swansea. And I was going, it's a really, really important thing. And they're going, it's not important. They just walk out and he says that. And you literally were not allowed to say. It was a pain of death and also I genuinely believe that would be very good publicity for the show I thought it would do Doctor Who good to have the queens there and then the queen changed her plans and then it just all never happened yeah she went to Cardiff that day I was looking into screenwriting generally both for TV and for movies and I particularly like when

30:44requests get made by the production heads and the screenwriter is asked to change the script in such a way that it just seems insane. One of the examples I found was there was a movie called Prick Up Your Ears, which is the story of Joe Wharton. And it was written as a book by a journalist called John Lahr. And then Alan Bennett got it and he did the screenplay of it. House, I'm just going to call on my damn bingo card. a journalist called John Lahr, and then Alan Bennett got it, and he did the screenplay of it. Great film. House, I'm just going to call on my damn bingo card that we've got Alan Bennett. Absolutely everyone you're interested in is in this anecdote. I love it. Well, Joe Orton was a gay British playwright.

31:16His partner, Kenneth Halliwell, murdered him with a hammer in their house, and it was a horrible story. They were very young. The notes that came back to Alan Bennett, he says in his introduction, is we love it, but could Joe Wharton be American and could he be a heterosexual? No way. Yeah. Oh my God. And what do you do when a note like that comes through, Russell? Do you just abandon shit? You just have to dig your heels in. I did get a note saying, well, we thought this woman was super strong and we thought she was super clever. Why is she crying in this scene? And you see they're going, three pages earlier, her lover was shot dead in her arms. You literally bang your head against the wall

31:56just going, who the? Honestly, it's incredible. But in those situations, you just dig in. You just sit there and go, no, nothing's changing there. It's anti-feminist that you suggested a woman would cry for something as small as that. It doesn't make her sound like a girl boss anymore. Just on the madness of scripts and how up to the wire they can go, Tom Cruise had an episode in Days of Thunder in 1990 where they were rewriting the script so much up to the last minute that he actually had to get in a car and do a car chase or something or drive a car just after they changed the script. He hadn't memorised a line, so they taped his cue cards to the windscreen of the car. Now, I don't know how you don't see it in the filming,

32:39but so he could shout them out, which, A, I find it so weird that you're expecting an actor to act plausibly while reading off cue cards and driving, but he did indeed crash the car as a result yes he's had two car crashes because that led me on to another script that he did in 2004 2005 collateral with Jamie Foxx oh good film and Jamie it is a good film and there's a car crash in that and Jamie Foxx was responsible for accidentally crashing the car in a stunt and he said it was very funny because Jamie Foxx wasn't that famous at the time and Tom Cruise was Tom Cruise. And he said the crew and cars all just scrambled over Jamie Foxx, kicking him and saying, are you all right, Mr. Cruise? Are you all right?

33:14Poor guy, trampled on. I worked on that television programme that blew up Anthea Turner live on air. You know that? You know, the television presenter, Anthea Turner, she was in it. It's on every BBC safety film. Up to you. You, P2, you. We were so ahead of the day. When was this? Like 1992, 93? And Anthea Turner live from one of those air shows indoors. They sat her on a pyrotechnic. She sat on a pyrotechnic and on a Saturday morning TV, did the link to camera and probably you'll find it online. So she's sitting there and it explodes on her. She sat on a pyrotechnic and on a Saturday morning TV did the link to camera and probably you'll find it online. So she's sitting there and it explodes

33:48on her and she drops out of camera and the careers that were ruined after that because how did that happen? Who said sit there? There was never a clear story told but oh my god when it goes wrong it goes properly wrong. I'm just like the thought of, no offence to Anthony, but the thought of Tom Cruise like being how much did that Cruise scramble? Like the death stretch, astonishing that can happen, it's absolutely astonishing It's amazing, thank god it does for the stories On death there was a writer called Alvin Sargent and he wrote four Spider-Man movies so you might have worked with him had you gone through the security but he always used to say, and he has passed away that on his tombstone he would have loved to have read,

34:26finally, a plot. Wonderful. That's a writer. I want my tombstone to say, now available on DVD. Okay, it is time for fact number three, and that is Anna. My fact this week is that in Wales, you used to be able to get married by jumping over a broom together and divorced by jumping backwards over it. Lovely. Did you have to be together as well for the divorce? Yes, I believe you did. You see, I'm now so old that you're running pieces of folklore past me that I remember. Oh! I know that you sent me this information. I know the past me that I remember. Oh. It's that I know that, you sent me this information, I know the phrase jump the broomstick. Right. Yes. As a marriage thing. Whether it's because I was born in Wales or not,

35:14but I instantly know that means marriage. I'm so glad you know that because it was a common phrase because of this. I'm not sure how many marriages were done. It was common in the 60s. It was there for 70. I've been, when I was six or going into the 70s, I literally, I can't think where or when it was said, but I literally know it as a thing. And also the tradition, at the same time, the tradition of if a couple were in bed, of putting a broomstick down the middle of the bed to stop them copulating. That was a thing as well. It was kind of a joke phrase you'd expect your grandmother to say, like, put a broom down the bed. So it was both marriage and the opposite of marriage. Weird. Let's clarify, in case

35:54listeners start questioning your age, that I don't think that people were actually getting married this way, even in your childhood. But yes, the phrase was going on. Was it called a besom wedding? A Besom wedding yes so Besom was the name for brooms before brooms came along. I never thought about this but the word broom is just named after the broom plant. It was just the plant they made brooms out of Didn't know broom was a plant No what's a broom plant? Nor did I Yeah exactly Looks like a broomstick. No I suppose it's nice that we have this word that just is a plant because of that The bit that got me about this was the the bit you're dealing with very likely is jumping backwards and when I said that

36:35I tried a little jump backwards and you're lucky I'm here Basically that's free Surely surely that was the earliest anti-divorce law in the world because it's impossible to jump backwards. Can you jump backwards? Try jumping backwards. Let's all do it now. I'm having a great go. Be careful because it's odd. I'm so glad Russell did the practicals for this. You see? Well, good. Well done. Pretty good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's odd though, isn't it? It is. It's an odd feeling. There's an extra detail on that that I read because I guess it's folklore so things get attached in different ways. Well, and there are lots of different ways of doing it, because every village would do it a different way.

37:09But what I read is that in order to get divorced, not only did you have to jump over it backwards, but the broomstick had to be put in between your front door, and you had to do it leaving the house. So you jumped over it as you were going out. It was a threshold. Yeah, exactly. It was the same with the marriage. It was always, sorry, you put the broomstick at the door. Oh, you would do it going in. But one detail that was added is that you can't touch the broomstick or the sidings of the door, but then they don't say what happens How big are the doors in Old Wales? Small. This is a big door. We're little people. Well, how are you both fitting side by side over the broom? I think one at a time

37:41is what I'm assuming, right? Do you think that's where carrying the bride over comes from? Must be. Over a broom, over an obstacle. God, you've got to jump over the broom. I think one at a time is what I'm assuming, right? Do you think that's where carrying the bride over comes from? Must be. Over a broom, over an obstacle. God, you've got to jump over the broom while carrying your wife? While carrying the bride. And deserve to be married. It's quite interesting, the reasons behind it was basically, so it was a non-church wedding, and the community that it persisted in the longest was the Romani communities in Wales, because they didn't do church weddings weddings and so this was another way of getting married

38:08um and you know without needing the church but it was also a way of if you've been knocked up and haven't got married it was a way of ensuring that your child wasn't raised as an illegitimate nothing all i can think of is the word bastard but i don't think we're supposed to call children bastards anymore um when they're born out of wedlock. You said the word illegitimate. That was the one that you... That was the one, okay. You skirted right over. That language. You don't want an illegitimate child. So it was like a way of saying, I am officially married, but I'm not saying that this guy actually now has to raise a child. If you send me a bit of money every now and again, I'll just stay living with my mum.

38:46She'll raise the child as her own, and it will have the status of a besom child, which is a bit better than just being an legitimate child. Besom child, that's a horror film. The besom child. Yes, righted. More Welsh romantic traditions. Okay. Your love spoons. Oh, that's weird. Really, I've got a world love spoon What do you do with it? Is it on the wall? I don't Do you know It's so nice that I don't use it for anything That's the problem with that But I didn't realise how much of a thing it was Oh and they completely exist still Yeah yeah I mean I wouldn't go to a wedding And expect to be given one It's a tourist thing now Yeah yeah yeah Like horse brosses You know it's that Because it sounded like it was how you courted someone

39:26and it had all these little symbols on it that suggested what you were envisaging with them going forward. Sorry, that sounds rude. It's not like a Casanova. There aren't 17 sexual positions running down the street. Very big love spoon. There are. It's cliche though. It's like if I invented a Welsh soap opera that was really coy and sweet, I'd call it love spoons. It's cliche though. It's like if I invented like a Welsh soap opera that was really coy and sweet, I'd call it love spoons. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. But the idea is the man carves it for his intended. And it's either you're away at sea and you're whiling away the long hours and that's the way you've chosen to do it. Or you... Like scrimshaw.

40:03Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Or that you're actually going and yeah exactly yeah yeah or that you're actually going and sitting with your girlfriend or your wife-to-be and this is a way of just passing the time in the long long evenings when you're only allowed to chat so you may as well be whittling something while you do it but is that scene is it always men doing the whittling it's a man's thing I think so yeah I believe so I would say that's an offensive date if I'm going on a first second third date and the guy spends his whole time whittling an eff. If I'm going on a first, second, third date and the guy spends his whole time whittling an effing spoon, I'm going to think I wasn't captivating enough company.

40:30You'd think he was ticking that. What would you think if he gave you a knitting sheath? That was the other love token that would be handed over. Well, they're quite sharp. Finally you've outreached me. I don't know these. It's basically if you were putting your sword away into a sheath, it's the equivalent for knitting needles, so that you would have them at the ready to pull out and knit as soon as you were ready. Quick, I need a jumper. Have we mentioned the bundling before as well? Because you mentioned the broom down the bed, but the other more aggressive version of that, if you thought there's no way this young man's going to be stopped by a broom down the middle of the bed you would be tied up in a sack and put next to you

41:10and I don't know if this happened in the 60s or 70s wow the man or the woman was tied up in the sack I think anyone who was willing to be put in the sack went in the sack basically but in the lower half only but occasionally I think again with especially dangerous young men or women they'd be tied up to the neck in a bag and then and then you were allowed to lie in bed all night chatting with your intended but it was just a safe way of ensuring that no hanky-panky occurred and it was both people in separate sacks or both the same sack with a division what do you mean one set you can't if you put them both in one sack that's incredible that's extreme shagging that's you totally got it wrong there.

41:45That's why we get the phrase in the sack. Was she good in the sack? Yes. I think I read one source. So again, there are various versions of bundling. One source I think says you do have a sack which had like a division in the middle. So they're both in it, but you can't cross the boundary. What's the point? What, it's stitched? It's stitched down the middle? Like a kind of two? I think maybe, yeah. I think just have two sacks. I think, as ever, all of this stuff happened sometimes and in different ways in different places. And initially, bundling actually didn't involve any sacks. I think it was the Puritans who made it a bit like that. And I think back in ye olde Wales, it was just meaning two youths who wanted a shag

42:21but weren't married, and bundling meant you can have them in a bedroom together, in bed together and they'll chat all night in inverted commas. I mean I read an 18th century account of old Welsh customs and this person was saying people attest to the innocence of the occasion all over Wales but the number of times you get something happening nine months after one of these moments. There's a hole in the sack. Hang on. Oh my god, going back to that original fact, I read the whole jumping over the Bermuda Tick. That was also the case for enslaved African-Americans because, of course, they weren't allowed to marry. Yes. So that was the only ceremony they could invent. Right. Homesteads, their own accommodation,

43:02and their own rules of making their own society. And still is. The kind of freedom that they found, yeah. I think still is a traditional thing to do in some communities. And I think there's a lot of debate about where that came from. But I think the most likely is that it did come from this Welsh custom. Wow. And that it was partly, you know, Welsh sailors travelling all over the world. Yes. And partly then, you know, Welsh migrants brought it to America and working class Welsh and English Celtic people in America were there with the enslaved Africans and they passed it on. A crossover you wouldn't expect. Amazing. Cymru and Bith. That is lovely. Are you from which bit of Wales? Swansea. Swansea.

43:32Oh, where the Queen has not been. Yeah. Damn it. And was this, so all this stuff that we're talking about is, it was folklore, but was there stuff in your time that you mentioned to people down in say england and they're like you guys used to do that well it's fine no i mean it's funny i've not thought of jump the broomstick since i was when i when you sent me this article i just knew that phrase yeah i didn't exactly i didn't go to university going guess what we do in wales we've got a broomstick down the bed um so i've never thought of it as odd. Also, Swansea's the only place in the world, I think, that calls a port-a-cabin a demountable. Oh, lovely. Demountable classrooms. And I thought everyone called them demountables.

44:12So I would go through life going, oh, you know, the meeting's in that demountable over there. People are like, are you insane? Well, at the port-a-cabin, we called them demountables. That's an extraordinarily different word. Because my school was, I went to a great big comprehensive school of 2,300 pupils. But in the first year, it was closed down because of the great high alumina cement scandal. You think these recent cement scandals are new. We had them in 1974. Schools were built with high alumina cement. Hospitals have been built with it. Swimming pools collapsed because they were built with this faulty cement. So all these buildings were closed down. We literally went through this again recently.

44:45It's astonishing. And no one remembered high alumina. So all these buildings were closed down. We literally went through this again recently. It's astonishing. And no one remembered high-aluminum cement. So our schools were closed down. So our school was rebuilt entirely out of demountable classrooms, like 40 in a field. Why demount? Is it like dismounting? I think you could demount them. Dismantle-ables. Dismantle-ables, you might as well have called them. Oh, dismantle-ables. They could be mounted and demounted. But only Swansea Have ever heard that word No one else has ever said that Yeah I've never heard that Yeah that's great Demantables One thing that originated Invented in Wales actually

45:15The idea of the radio play Interesting This is very cool So this was in 1924 I think And BBC was in its very Very early days And you know they they've done a few bits of shakespeare on the radio and they've done an adaptation of pride and prejudice but they've got a big night coming up which is going to be a few of these things tied together and the commissioner is saying just feels like we need something something that's actually written for the radio and a writer called richard hughes who was 23, said, oh, I'll write you something. And they said, well, we've only got four days to go, so there's no way we can do it. He said, so I'll write it tonight. So that night he wrote, I love this, it's called A Comedy of Danger.

45:58And it's, because it's Welsh, it's in a coal mine, and it's, you know, a party goes down a coal mine and they get into difficulties and all their stuff. And he knew nothing about coal mines. I think he was trying it on because he was Welsh and he thought that's what they would want. He was Welsh. Yeah, pretty much. He said, you know. He wrote it in one night and it went out. Three days later it was recorded and bang. First ever radio play written actually properly for the radio. Do we still have it? Was it recorded at the time or would that have just gone out and disappeared? Oh God, those things, 24. Yeah, seems unlikely. They haven't kept Doctor Who episodes from the 80s, practically. So I'd be surprised.

46:30We've probably got a script. I like him. He was a grifter-allegrafter at the same time. He is. They used to believe in knockers, apparently, which were tiny miners who mined under the ground in Wales and alerted real miners to where the location of mines was. And Welsh miners up until the early 20th century would say, the only reason we need to dig here was because we heard the knockers knocking away. And I just read such sincere attestations that people will say we're crazy, but I heard them drilling the other day. That's a Doctor Who story. There we go. Yes, do the knockers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that. Knock them up. Brilliant, yeah. I think it'll need a name tweak, won't it? Stop the podcast.

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47:53On with the show. Stop the podcast. Hey, everyone. This week's episode of Fish is sponsored by Saley. Yes. Now, if you have ever been lost abroad or just desperate to do some Googling while you're sitting in a gorgeous Spanish tapas restaurant, you'll know how badly you want a good internet connection. And it can be a nightmare when you are, say, in a tapas restaurant. You haven't sorted out a plan on your phone, but you do desperately need to make a call. And you are going to rack up a huge bill as a result. And so Saley is your protector. Yes, with Saley, you get an eSIM that only needs to be installed once and then it will significantly reduce, even eliminate roaming fees because it has affordable eSIM plans in over 200 destinations. It's also got 24-7 support. It's really essential.

48:42You really don't want those bills, if you're going overseas you do not so all you need to do is download the app buy a plan and install the e-sim it's as easy as that and you can get an exclusive 15 discount on saly data plans if you use the code fish at checkout you just need to download the saly app or go to saly.com slash fish do it now okay on with the show on with the podcast okay it is time for our final fact of the show and that is my fact my fact this week is that the only way that there will ever be a reboot of back to the future is if someone goes back in time to change history. So this is the fact that Bob Semeckis and his producer friend Bob Gale, who was also a writer with him,

49:32had a clause put into the contract when they were making Back to the Future, when it was sold, that you can never make a remake of it. You can never make a sequel without our approval, and we're never going to give that to you. It's a quick pitch, Russell. I think there's actually a good idea for a movie to be called back to back to the future back to the future where you go back in time to get them to stop writing their claws employ that lawyer yeah it's an astonishing deal yeah really that is is it is it a hard deal to do i feel like you could just write it down anything ever ever ever yeah like even like your big novels and stuff like that bob gale's always asked about it and they say when is back to the future 4 coming out and the one quote that i found

50:09was he said you know you don't sell your kids into prostitution it's the wrong thing to do we put the end of part three for a reason and they're not buckling on it they just think they would only do it if they had michael j fox they're not going to have michael j fox do it therefore that's the story that's what you get. Hold on. Can I ask? This is a reboot, not a sequel, right? So it's in the contract that they can't remake the first one. No. But you can remake a backstory. They made the sequels. Yeah, because they made the sequels. Exactly. Yes, they made all three, part one, two, and three. And the contract that they've suggested, the clause, is that no reboots or sequels without their involvement.

50:44Yeah. Can I check? suggested the clause is that no reboots or sequels without their involvement yeah can i check did they sign this amazing contract before it was really successful yes because at the beginning because that makes it easier because then no one's demanding we must have this and if you can get it signed before it's hugely successful yeah maybe that helps absolutely i think that was the case at the same time studios just want to keep everything. Everything. I mean, I've had deals fall through just because American companies will want the stage rights. And you sit there going, I'm not going to give you the stage rights. And the whole deal's been cancelled because of that. So they are rapacious.

51:17So to let someone do that, that's a great lawyer. That's really astonishing. Well, it sounds like that might have been that bit of Hollywood anyway. So Ghostbusters had a similar clause not as strong as that But it needed approval of of ackroyd of Bill Murray and maybe one and Reitman And the reason Ghostbusters 3 took so long to come out is because Murray just didn't want to he had he would he didn't even Write it. He was just one of the stars in it and he had a veto over whether or not they make it Yeah, so maybe Hollywood contracts were just a bit looser yeah that's yeah those are the days wow um there's a great fact that we did as a headline fact on fish once which is that the person credited as

51:56the official consultant about the future for the movie back to the future he was their consultant was the great grandson of hg wells yeah that's who they brought on to it what do you think that man just piped up and said i'm their grandson of hg wells and lied i know how i'll get the job yeah because really what credentials does that give it how was the interview any more logs in it no oh well that's right there wouldn't be in that period yes absolutely it's like yeah. Can I tell you something about Chinese time travel? Yeah. This is really interesting because we did a fact maybe... It's a girl from left to right. Lovely. Ten years ago, maybe, we did a fact saying that time travel narratives

52:36are not legal in China and that they crack down on it because, of course, if you're changing the past, you might be changing the future and therefore you might be implying a world in which China didn't didn't have a communist revolution all of this stuff so it's really interesting that has changed a lot in the decade also since we discussed it because there are now loads of stories which have alternate histories but it turns out the main use of the alternate histories is to take modern political thinking and technologies back so that everyone could be communists even better and even earlier. They're really popular. And they basically make China great again stories, like Red Dawn, where the main character goes back to 1905

53:16and says, hey, communism, 45 years early. So I think that's fascinating. I did, because I remembered that fact. And I thought, OK, Russell with Doctor Who, was that ever a problem? And I found an article that said in 2017, China finally signed a deal with the BBC to allow for Doctor Who to be shown. And so I looked into it more. And before that, I found a blog by a lady called Susan Bloomberg Cason. And she's an English teacher. And she wrote a thing saying, I teach English speaking and listening to groups of postgrad med students here. And in order to help them learn, I put on an episode of Doctor Who. And she said, after a while, the conversation in the room started to get a bit heated. And then

53:53suddenly one of the students leapt to his feet, raced to the front and paused the episode. There followed a four minute rant in Mandarin in which I'm told this particular cardiologist decried both the program, choice of showing it my parents marital status and a few other interesting things and then they all complained and said sit back down he's just trying to get higher up in the party and they watched the rest of the episode but there were heated students who thought time travel not allowed this is immoral also cardiologists and he's got two hearts i mean that, that's funny. Yes, lovely. It's like heretical. Wow. There was a big fuss about the BBC signing a deal with China and then it was never heard of again.

54:30Right. I'm not aware of a single screening. Now you say this, I remember that, and now I'm thinking I'm not aware of a single sale to China or a single Chinese viewer. That's weird. What happened there? You may never know. Yeah. Tell us if you're listening in China. One of the early chunks of the book, of your book, is the reboot of Doctor Who. I mean, you have... Thank you for bringing me back to my book. I really appreciate the strenuous effort. The publicity woman was looking at me saying, you should be doing this, Russell. I was being kicked under the table, actually, by Millie. No, but you did do this. You did take on the juggernaut. And I was quite surprised by some of the details. I'm not sure if you've ever said those before,

55:07but it wasn't meant to be David Tennant. So you were recording... Peter O'Toole. It was Peter O'Toole. No, but almost the equivalent, because it was Tom Baker that you initially thought that you would bring back. In 2001, I kept on being brought in to meet various different people every time. And at that point, I was like, well, why not Tom Baker? Why not have, you know, the world's greatest living doctor is still sitting there in retirement. So it was discussed. And then the tide came in and the tide came out. It was never mentioned again. And different people came in and blah, blah, blah. But it was talked about. Yeah. I was like, wow, he's so brilliant. Yeah. I became obsessed, speaking of the history of Doctor Who,

55:45with something now these guys will be bored by, which is the first voice of the Dalek. It was a guy called Peter Hawkins. Yes. So the Daleks are often compared to a pepper pot. Everyone knows this, right? Yeah. What was his other big role? A flower pot. He was the voice of Bill and Ben, the flower pot men. That's really good, Pepperpot Flowerpot. Can I say a fact? We have a listener called David Lever who sent in a lot of wonderful Doctor Who facts recently and we weren't able to do them all. But I just like this one so much that when the Deadly Assassin, now regarded as one of Tom Baker's best episodes, was released, the head of the Doctor Who Appreciation Society hated it so much, he immediately disbanded the society.

56:33And then David adds, this was the last time Doctor Who fans ever got this proportionately angry. That's great. That's funny, man. Russell, did you, when you read the 12 volumes of Casanova's autobiography, did you read his five-volume science fiction novel? No, I didn't. Is that available anywhere? I don't know. We know details about it, though. It's people who lived on the moon, isn't it? No, they lived in the hollow earth. Oh, in the hollow earth. That's it. It is wild. Which is quite a long-running hollow earth theory, isn't it? Yes. That's very... Yeah, it was coming up. It was kind of the... Knockers. Knockers. It was the knockers. That's all connected. Casanova's knockers. That's why we're here.

57:16Okay, there we go. Yeah, it was... I mean, it sounds amazing. It sounds incredibly inventive. Basically, it was two... I think they're a brother and sister, and they go into the earth. Oh, yeah. Oh yeah, they get stuck in the earth. They don't know what happened to the brother and sister. Well, I mean, everyone was at it in the proto earth inside our planet. There were 18 inch tall hairless humanoids with red, blue, green, and mixed colored skin. Going back to Wales now. I can say that. They would get some of their nutrients, or a lot of their nutrients, from the breasts of women, one of which produced milk, the other which was wine. Oh, Giacomo, Giacomo, Giacomo, Giacomo. That's what it was like then.

57:57Five volumes. Mine do that, actually. Well, this is very exciting. Russell T. Davis's Casanova's knockers coming soon. Okay, that's it. That is all of our facts. Thank you so much for listening. If you'd like to get in contact with any of us about the things we have said over the course of this podcast, we're all online. I'm on at Shriverland. Andy? At Andrew Hunter M. And Russell? Please don't bother me. Yeah. Really? What the hell are you talking about? But if you want to see stuff that Russell's up to, you do have an Instagram account, which is very active. Duke. Catches lots of fun adventures. And you've got your new book out. So that is out now. It's the story of your life in TV, basically.

58:40So we spoke about Casanova and Doctor Who, but there are so many more shows. Years and years, queer as folk. It's a sin. It's a sin. Children's Who, but there are so many more shows. Years and years. Queer as Folk. It's a sin. Children's shows, soap operas, everything. Everything. It's a fantastic book. I've read it. It's called The Queerest of Folk. It is out now. So get your copy. You can also ask us some questions about this episode if you want by emailing podcast at qi.com. Andy goes through all the emails. He will pick out those questions. He will bring them to our special bonus episode, which is called Drop Us a Line. And you'll find that as part of Clubfish, which is on Patreon. So go to Patreon.com slash Clubfish. There's lots of extra bonus stuff

59:17there. Do check it out. But if you have maybe an extra fact that you think you want us to know about, why don't you send that? Because we collect all of our best facts and we bring them to Little Fish. That's our Monday bonus show. So if you want to hear one of your facts read out loud, again, podcast at QI.com. Otherwise, come back here next week. We are going to be back with another episode. Thank you as ever to Liying Li, Ethan Rupertalia, as well as the Wider Fish Buster team. And we'll see you next week. Goodbye. Ethan Ruperelia as well as the wider fish buster team and we'll see you next week goodbye hey there it's Ryan Seacrest for Safeway fall is here which means it's time to stock up on

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