The After Show: Justice for Faith

0:00Hi, I'm Katie, your friend and jeweler at Shane Company. As a Shane Company jewelry consultant and gift insider, here are my top three engagement ring trends for a magical holiday proposal. Vintage-inspired styles with intricate details, bold rings with thicker gold bands, and unique diamond shapes like antique cushion. We have so many beautiful ring styles and diamonds in stock to compare side by side. Plus, we'll protect your ring with our all-inclusive free lifetime warranty. Visit us in-store or at shaneco.com. Shane Company, your friend and jeweler. Hi, everybody, and welcome to 2020 The After Show. I'm Debra Roberts, and we have got quite a show for you today, one that we have actually been following here at 2020 for a decade.

0:45And it has just concluded after an investigation that just dragged on for years. You may have seen it on Friday night, and if you didn't, we're going to bring you up to date today on it, our 2020 episode called Justice for Faith. It's a story of a young, bright, happy-go-lucky teenager named Faith Hedgepeth. She was 19 years old. She grew up just outside Raleigh, North Carolina in a close-knit family. She had landed at the University of North Carolina, which was her dream school. It was 2012. She was in her sophomore year with big hopes of studying medicine, maybe becoming a doctor to bring her skills back to her home community. But sadly, just weeks into a new semester, Faith was found dead, bludgeoned to death in the apartment that she was sharing with a

1:32friend after a night out on the town with her friends. The murder, as you can imagine, shocked the college campus and the entire community, and it left police with no obvious suspect and few leads to go on for years. Well, 2020 correspondent Ryan Smith began investigating this story back in 2016. He's been on the case, trying to figure out how and why the case had grown cold. And then, of course, finally, an arrest in 2021, a trial, and that just wrapped up days ago. So Ryan, barely off the plane from North Carolina, where he's been reporting on this story, joins us now. Ryan, how are you doing? Are your eyes a little bleary today? It's been a lot of work. A little bleary, but charged up and ready to go.

2:17I mean, this was a case that they had been searching for something, in this case, for over a decade. And, Deborah, you know it's so rare for cases like this to be solved when it goes past a year, two years, three years. Absolutely. Yeah, finally resolved. Well, this is what we call a crash in our industry. So you all were racing to go find this story right after the trial had happened. It was 2016 when you jumped into the story. You interviewed Faith's parents. You talked to friends, investigators all around this case. Give me a sense of who this young woman was. Yeah, this was a truly remarkable young woman. She embodied everything that her family, that the Hala'wa Siponi tribe, wanted their people to be and wanted her to be. She was an honor student in high school.

3:05She received a full ride to go to UNC Chapel Hill. She had a mission to become a doctor and go back and work maybe as a pediatrician with her tribe to help out her tribe. This young woman just embodied everything you want in young people, and her family was so close. She had a sister, her brother. They all believed in each other. They were tight with each other. They were such good people. And so the overwhelming thought you had when you cover this trial, when I first got into it and read all about her and started talking to people was, how could this happen to someone like Faith? And I thought the same thing too, when I heard about it, one of our team members, Alex, actually went to school there and talked about, you know, knowing this area and what that must have felt like on campus.

3:50Take us back to that night in September of 2012. So Faith and her roommate went out for a night, I guess, of what a partying and just sort of hanging out. Take us back to that night. Yeah, this was and, you know, this whole story sort of begins, the night of that story begins with two friends at the library studying and then deciding, okay, we're good. Let's go out and have some fun. So they go to a place called the Thrill Nightclub. They get dressed up, they go out, they have fun with people, they stay for a while, and they decide to leave. And nothing that they were doing is different from what college students do right go out you did your work right go out have fun party a little they come back and around 2 2 30 in the

4:30morning they go back up to the apartment uh karina her roommate karina rosario um is a little tipsy she uh a lot tipsy yes well she talks about vomiting so she gets she gets pretty drunk faith is trying to help her faith is giving her a trash can if she gets sick and then faith goes to bed karina had been going through a couple of things at the time just with relationships and different people so she calls up a friend of hers and that friend comes and picks her up and she goes over that person's house karina leaves she leaves the door unlocked faith is inside which is critical we're going to find out it is she leaves the door unlocked faith is inside she leaves She goes to her friend's house, a young man named

5:08Jordan McCrary. Karina goes. Yes, Karina goes. And then the next morning, you know, she's up. She's like, I'm going to go back home. She calls Faith for a ride. So Faith had a car and Karina typically got rides from her. She kept calling her, calling her. A lot of people kept calling Faith in the morning because Faith sometimes had trouble getting up, no different from any other college student, and couldn't reach her. So Karina finally makes her way home and discovers Faith bludgeoned to death. And it was a brutal scene, a brutal scene. I mean, there was blood everywhere. Faith had clearly been brutally attacked, and Karina was beside herself and immediately called the police. Understandably. She was the one who called 911. It must have just been traumatized.

5:48So this scene is just shocking to everybody. And then it goes on. No obvious suspects. They're kind of thinking, well, this all sounds very strange. Let's talk to all the people sort of in her sphere. They talk to Karina. Obviously, she winds up being clear. They talk to a couple of guys who are involved. Police really have nothing to go on. And it's kind of an open investigation. They're kind of counting on us. When you start talking to them, they're counting on the national coverage to make a difference, aren't they? Yeah, it was a big deal. And Debra, you know this. This is an ongoing case. And investigators and authorities decide to talk to us on television. That is not common. Yeah. Because the case is ongoing. What they don't want to do is make too much stuff public and

6:30end up blowing something in the investigation. But it was so critical for them to find information that they decided to talk to the media and decided to talk to 2020. And what I think that really underscores that I think, I'm not sure people realize from watching on Friday. I think what it really underscores is how dedicated they were to this. And there's another thing about this that makes it so tough, made their job so hard to find the killer. Karina and Faith were good people. They were college students. They had tons of friends. So authorities, think about that night, they go to a nightclub, hundreds of people there. They're on the UNC campus, thousands of kids on campus, in their phones, scores of people in their phones.

7:12Police had to look at hundreds of people. They had to swab DNA from scores of people just to get a sense of who might have done this. 1,800 people they said they would talk to ultimately over the time. Well, let's talk about Karina because Faith's family had some questions about her in the very beginning. She left the door unlocked when she left. Talk to us a little bit about Faith and Karina and what you learned about them and their relationship and that night. Yeah, there were a lot of questions about Karina. And Karina had to speak to investigators a bunch of times. So here's the deal. Karina is the one who discovers Faith and calls 911. And a bunch was made about what happened in the moments before Faith died

7:51and then afterwards. Afterwards, there was some questions about how on the 911 call, Karina kept referring to Faith as my friend. These two, according to their friends, were super close, did everything together. So there was a lot of scuttlebutt about, well, why is she not calling her faith on the 911 call? Why are you keep saying my friend, my friend? I just want to say, this is just me and you, Debra. I just, I really think that sometimes it can be difficult to read into how people respond to tragedy. That's right. We all have different responses. Sometimes we're in shock. Sometimes you might look back at what you do in a shocking moment and say, why did I do it that why was i like that and she's 19 she's 19 that was one issue the other issue is

8:30leaving the door unlocked that might speak to the safety of the area as she saw it but for a lot of people it was why would you leave the door unlocked at four o'clock in the morning and that led to some scuttlebutt about maybe she was involved in some way. The third thing was she called a young man named Jordan McCrary to pick her up at four something in the morning. He picks her up, and he says he notices blood on her hand and asks her, like a little spot of blood. He says, what's that? And she says, I don't know. Well, it turns out that police asked her about that, and she's like, I don't know what he's talking about. I didn't say anything about that. And then when questioned about the blood, she said maybe it was vomit. I was drinking red slushies all night, and that could have been what he's talking about. I didn't say anything about that. And then when questioned about the blood, she said, maybe it was vomit.

9:05I was drinking red slushies all night and that could have been what he thought it was. So there was an issue not only with, did she have some blood on her hand? Could that have been somehow involved? And why does she have these conflicting stories, which she would say they're not conflicting because I don't know what he's talking about. He never asked me that. So there were a bunch of details that for some didn't add up, but she was ultimately cleared in all of this. Right, right. Police did not see anything worthy of charging her ultimately. So they're at square one, right? So they spend years trying to investigate this case. And we're going to take a break. And I want to talk about that because no surprise to those who follow true crime,

9:42DNA was the holy grail of evidence in this case. So we're going to take a break. And when we come back, we're going to go into the details of that Friday night show and how genetic genealogy would be the key to tracking down Faith's killer. So stay with us. Support comes from WISE, the smart way to manage the currencies you need around the globe. You fed up with losing out to hidden fees when you send money abroad with your everyday bank? Choose the smart way, WISE. You can count on the exchange rate you'd usually find on Google. No unwelcome surprises. Plus ditch that, where's my money feeling? Most transfers arrive in under 20 seconds. Join millions saving billions on hidden fees. Be smart.

10:28Get wise. Download the Wise app now. T's and C's apply. This show is sponsored by Over My Dead Body Operation Sideswipe, a podcast from Audible. A trucker merges onto I-10 in New Orleans. He checks his mirrors. The lane is clear, and then boom, impact. A pickup truck scrapes down the side of his 18-wheeler. Multiple passengers inside. One man flees the scene, and the driver of the pickup doesn't seem all that upset. It didn't feel like a regular accident because it wasn't. Across the city, truckers were getting sideswiped all on the same stretch of the same freeway, and behind most of the cases was one personal injury lawyer, a Hollywood stuntwoman turned attorney named Vanessa Moda. In Over My Dead Body Operation Sideswipe, you'll hear how

11:18fake accidents led to real consequences, and how this scheme led to betrayal and even murder. Listen to Over My Dead Body Operation Sideswipe wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can get all episodes early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Welcome back to 2020 The After Show. I'm sitting here with Ryan Smith, who has just raced back to New York from North Carolina, covering the murder trial of Faith Hedgepeth, the 19-year-old University of North Carolina student who was found murdered in an off-campus apartment. Ryan, one of the ominous things in this story, that was i struck me on 2020 on friday night was a piece of

12:06evidence found at the crime scene very bizarre stuff it was a paper bag uh near faith's body and it had written on it i'm not stupid bitch jealous yeah so strange yeah tell what did they make of this note and were they convinced that this was somebody who killed what did police make of this yeah this immediately uh stuck to everybody who saw this including me i you see this paper bag from a local restaurant called time out there was a restaurant somebody had gotten some food and written on the bag was this note and immediately when you read it you think that has to be the killer just because it looks like maybe they came back for revenge saying, did you insult me? And now I'm going to tell you, I'm not stupid, you know? And the jealous part didn't make a lot of sense.

12:55So that led police trying to put things together. Like what, what impact could this have? Could this somehow be involved? That really stumped all of us. And I remember asking so many different people, what do you make of this message? Could it somehow be related? They were trying everything they could to try to figure out if it was. Ultimately, I don't think we really know the connection to this, but it certainly sticks out as strange. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And going forward in the trial, I don't know that we knew either. But before we even get there, another piece of evidence, finally the big break in the case. DNA evidence recovered at the scene. There's a Bacardi bottle, which was deemed to be

13:36possibly the murder weapon and DNA discovered. Tell us about that. The way they painted a picture eventually in this case was that someone burst in the apartment, attacked Faith with that Bacardi bottle, and then ended up not only knocking her out, trying to hit her, hitting her with that bottle, but also sexually assaulting her. So that was the sort of theory that they were working off of. But that Bacardi bottle was so critical because now they have someone's DNA that might have been involved. And what is so interesting, can I just say, Deborah, about this case? One thing that's interesting about this case is, I don't know how many college students you know, or how many of your listeners know college students,

14:16but when police came on this scene, it was difficult for them to understand whether or not this crime scene was just a complete, there was stuff everywhere. Chaotic. It was chaotic. Was this a result of an attack? There was a ton of evidence on the scene. It was a very bloody crime scene. But what they had trouble finding was sorting all that chaos out to try to find that print that could lead to a killer. And the fact of it is, here we are now, all these years later, where DNA technology has changed tremendously. And that happens in so many of these stories that we cover, where they weren't able to piece things together years ago. Now they are. So let's talk about this. Because what stunned me was that police are able to create a profile and kind of a sketch from DNA that they are able to discover. And they did in this case, which led them

15:06to kind of an unlikely suspect. Tell us about this, the suspect, Miguel Salguero Olivares. Yeah, Olivares. This is a true testament to how much, as you say, DNA and genealogy and all these different tools that authorities used have come a long way since 2012 when Faith was killed. So they end up with a composite sketch. And in fact, the first time we showed this story on 2020, back in 2016, we sort of worked together to sort of get together on this composite sketch that was eventually produced. So a composite sketch is produced and they use that. But what was interesting about this case, especially in talking to authorities this time around they never gave up there were officers going to conferences

15:49trying to find out the newest technology in dna testing and genealogy testing to try to find matches to this print over the years yes going to conferences reading books trying to figure out whatever they could find to try to get and i think people look at authorities authorities and they say, well, cold cases go cold and they don't really look at them. They never gave up on this thing. I mean, going to a conference, asking people. One of the investigators talked about talking to a doctor who was able to help him understand the connections between the genealogy and the DNA. So long story short, they have this DNA, but they couldn't find a match. They end up getting a composite sketch. They end up also going into genetic genealogy,

16:28which is a tool that's used to try to figure out the genealogy of the person they are trying to find. Through testing Cece Moore and her team and Parabon Nanolabs, they end up finding that the DNA they're searching for comes from a group of people in Guatemala. Then links are made from that group of people in Guatemala to a community, a Guatemala community in North Carolina. The connection is made to North Carolina through somebody looking on a Facebook page and finding a connection there, who then connected back to Olivares. That's astounding. I mean, the work that it took to get there is astounding. And the fact that they got there is also incredible. Well, Olivares, it turns out, had no connection to Faith, a 19-year-old guy at the time who was working as a painter in the area.

17:14Near, though, living near her. Right. And oftentimes, you know, when we cover these stories, there is some connection. It's a spurned lover, boyfriend, spouse, something. But in this case, there was no evidence that he had had a real connection to Faith, right? No. And in fact, when they talked to Olivares right away, he had said, I don't even know who that is. I don't know who this person is. And police couldn't find that direct connection. But that was interesting because it ended up playing against his story in many ways of sort of being unfamiliar with her. But what was, what really got me here was, especially when you look at DNA, people say, well there's DNA on the scene, right? So we can connect DNA to somebody and

17:55they'll find the killer, right? Why haven't they found the killer? There's DNA. If the other person's DNA is not in the system, or if they don't have a way of accessing their DNA, you're not gonna find find who did it. And that's what happened here. And the fact that there was no connection between the two of them, the fact that there was nobody who could say, yeah, I've seen these two people together, made it all these years all the more difficult to connect to him. Well, ultimately, though, he stopped at a traffic stop once for, what, DUI. And bingo, police are at some point able to make the connection. Absolutely astounding stuff. Well, Ryan, don't go anywhere because this story just gets more and more interesting.

18:32Olivares is eventually charged, arrested. He was charged with first degree murder and three other counts related to Faith's murder. He pleaded not guilty, but, there's a trial, as we said. So don't go anywhere because the trial began in early October. Just last week, there was a verdict. We're going to take a break, though. And when we come back, we're going to take you inside that courtroom with our 2020 Eagle Eye and contributor, Pat LaLama. She's going to join us to share some of the explosive moments during the trial, including emotional ones from Oliveira himself in front of the jury. Don't you go anywhere. We'll be right back. Hi, I'm Jen, your friend and jeweler at Shane Company. As your gift insider, here are my top fine jewelry picks to give this holiday.

19:23Our tennis bracelets and diamond studs feature the prettiest hand-picked, hand-matched diamonds. We have beautiful 14-carat gold chains that make great gifts for both men and women. You can personalize a piece, too. Add an engraving, pick a natural gem in their favorite color or birthstone, or give a letter charm. Come see for yourself, in-store or at shaneco.com. Shane Company, your friend in jeweler. Welcome back to 2020 The After Show. I'm here with Ryan Smith, our correspondent and my friend who has been covering this story of Faith Hedgepeth for over a decade. And also with us now is 2020 contributor Pat LaLama, who was inside that courtroom during the trial where Miguel Salguero Olivares was

20:06facing life in prison for Faith Hedgepeth's murder. Pat, welcome. Good to have you with us. As always, you were right there front row, and it's always great to get your take on these stories. You know what, Deborah? It was such a fascinating case. First of all, just along the lines of what Ryan was saying, this family, the Hedgepeth family, they are, they're not just them, but their entire community were so cohesive and showed up every day. Remember, it's been a long journey for them. But the trial itself for me, just kind of analyzing the prosecution and defense, the defense knew immediately that it had an uphill battle with the DNA. But the points that the defense was trying so hard to make with the jury was, A,

20:53because his DNA was there, you can't automatically jump from the presence of his DNA to him being the murderer. Also, the prosecution never really drew that nexus. They never proved that he was in the area. There was a barbecue that night in the parking lot of the apartment complex. And they brought up people on the stand and tried to plant a seed of curiosity with the jury that, yeah, maybe he was there, maybe he wasn't, but they never, ever made that connection. And the defense also, talking about Karina, the defense had one way to try to kick up some dust in the jury's mind. And that was to say, no, wait a minute, not that Oliveras wasn't there or wasn't involved, but that Karina, when they got back to that apartment,

21:52Deborah, she was so emotional. Ryan mentioned what they thought was blood on her hand, which George McCrary did say he felt he saw and talked with her about. She was in a flurry to get out of the apartment. This is a defense I'm portraying right here, right now. She was calling. She called one guy, Brandon. He wasn't picking up. And then she called Jordan and said, come get me, come get me. And she needed to get out of that apartment. Downstairs, a neighbor said, told police that she heard noises thumping that were a lot, was alarming to her. Now I'm just telling you what the defense's side is. Okay. I'm not saying I believe it or not, but they had to create sort of an alternative. They had to kick up, they had to kick up dust

22:37and confuse the jury. And I think they did a decent job of bringing up, why didn't you stop and even say goodbye to her when you left? Why are you in such a hurry? She left the door open. On the stand, she said, well, I had to get out of there because I knew my friend was outside waiting for me. She said that he was outside waiting, but he said she was outside waiting for him when he pulled up. So little inconsistencies here and there. The defense wanted desperately to be able to connect her. They had a pretrial hearing on what they call third-party culpability, which said, we want to bring her up and we want to challenge this and we want to try to connect her. The judge said, no, there's not enough.

23:13You cannot do that. But the defense, I think, walked right up to the line and trying to kick up some dust that the jury might be confused about the actual timeline. Which is, of course, what they were going to do. Ryan, you're nodding your head here. Prosecutors argued that nothing is inconsistent with the defendant's guilt, which was interesting to me because the prosecution, of course, painted this case and brought in witnesses, but the defense didn't bring in any witnesses. They just wanted to create a little doubt. And I asked prosecutors about that. Were you surprised the defense didn't call witnesses? They said absolutely they were. They thought someone would be up there to at least talk about who Olivares was and try to explain the story.

23:49That, of course, would open some doors that maybe the defense didn't want to happen. But, yeah, it's interesting. I think when you look at this case, part of the prosecution's theory that they tried to put out there was, you know, these two young ladies come home two o'clock something in the morning. I went through with an officer about the distance of these things. Their apartment was about, I don't know, about 60 or 70 yards away from this barbecue that was going into the small wee hours. And Miguel and maybe these two women encountered each other. Maybe some things were said. And then Karina leaves, and Miguel maybe uses that moment to make his attack. That was sort of what they tried to paint.

24:28What was difficult was, as Pat says, no one could definitively place Miguel Olivares at that barbecue. And then the interaction, no one could really say that happened either. So the defense was able to paint a lot of doubt. And that's all they have to do. You only need one to hang a jury. And that was what they were going for. And that's what they were going for. Pat, there was a moment in the trial that nobody saw coming. And you're sitting right there, Olivares breaks down in tears after the defense plays a recorded jailhouse video call with a longtime friend of his, Katie Ellen, who has since passed away, saying that she loved him. What was that moment like? Well, a little bit of backstory, if I can, briefly.

25:07So in court, I met a woman named Laura Ellen. Laura had a daughter, Katie, as you mentioned. Katie's now deceased, sadly. But Katie was Miguel's very closest friend back in the day, around 2012. They worked at a pizza place. She was a UNC student and they worked at a pizza place together and they stayed very close. They were not lovers. They didn't date, but they just had a connection and they watched movies together. They hung out at his house with his mom. She really loved this man. Now, when she found out she had moved away, when she found out that he had been charged, she was just dumbfounded. And she went right to the jail to have, or she had several jailhouse calls with him. And the reason why they played the

25:59jailhouse call, the reason why the prosecution played it was because he wrote, they were having technical problems communicating. So he wrote a note to her and held it up to the screen on the camera to say, you know, give me your number, I will call you. The prosecution was hoping to use that as a handwriting comparison as to the note left at the scene. But in a way, maybe Ryan agrees with me on this. It sort of backfired. But what it did do, Olavara sat in court and sobbed when he saw her on the screen, remembering their time. I mean, sobbed. Well, this is a friend that he's lost. Like out loud. And he's right there in court. And you know what, Debra let me just say this though. It was right after that, that was the last thing left with the jury.

26:50So in a way it portrayed him as human, which may have played into the defense's decision not to, here's what I think. I think the defense said, they probably gambled and said, you know what? I've already poked holes in Karina's story I've already poked holes in some of the DNA in the gathering of evidence why not just leave this here this last thing for the jury to see that this man is capable of sobbing and hurting yeah that's my take yeah well it seemed to be the the way the defense was going but obviously it didn't make that big of an impact, Pat, because after about two days of deliberations, the jury unanimously found Olivares guilty on all counts related to this murder, burglary, rape and sexual assault of Hedgepeth.

27:39Ryan, I want to talk about the jury, but Pat, tell me about that moment when they came with the guilty verdict. Well, you know, I've been around since the T-Rex, and I've watched a whole lot of verdicts. Maybe just post-T-Rex, but that's okay. But I have to tell you, so I was sitting on the, you know, I didn't leave the courtroom except for, you know, a bathroom break or two while they were deliberating. And it was really actually like more like a full day when you think about it, that they deliberated. They started the night before, but got nowhere and then deliberated all day long. But we were all sitting there because nobody wanted to leave. And all of a sudden I look around and people are just rushing. The families rushing in,

28:19reporters are running down the hallway. And then we get the word that there's a verdict. And I sat there and I have to tell you, after all these years, my heart was still pounding because it was just so emotional watching the families on both sides, by the way, Deborah, watching the Hedgepeth family over here just being stoic and, you know, hanging on to each other and also watching Miguel's mother behind him who also remained stoic. And my heart still pounded through the whole thing. And watching the reaction of Miguel, too, who seemed to me to be A, in shock, and B, in disbelief. A lot of people characterized him as being smug and shaking his head. And by the way, and maybe Ryan knows more about this, but my understanding is that they weren't all unanimous in the beginning that

29:10there were four who had questions. Yeah, let's talk about that. Because Ryan did sit down with those jurors, and they struggled with this. And there were some who were not sure, but they ultimately came together. Tell us about that deliberation process. Deborah, I'll tell you, how rare is it sometimes for us to be able to talk to jurors after these cases? I mean, it does not often happen. Sometimes one, but certainly not several. Oh, it was just so enlightening because you're right. Both of you are right. At the very beginning, they told me, I spoke to four jurors. They told me they took a vote. This is often what happens. They go back there. Okay, let's take a vote. So here we are, eight to four.

29:44Eight to four eight to four and that is i would say for people out there trying to say okay well that doesn't seem so unreasonable that can be a very wide chasm yeah because you've got to be unanimous and you've got to convince four people yes and i and we had a couple of the people who were on the four side in our group and i said well what did you think? Why did you think? Give me your thoughts on that. And one of the guys said, the male juror who I was speaking to said, I just thought he was not guilty. And I was like, well, what do you mean, just not guilty? He said, no, I just couldn't see him as guilty. And maybe that relates, Pat, to part of what you were saying about the emotion that he showed.

30:22Maybe that could have, in many ways, heightened his sense of, hey, this is the weight of this. Can I be sure? Is there no doubt in my mind that he did this? Or do I have some reasonable doubt? So this jury, they said a couple of things that were very interesting. First, they believed that the defense was very convincing in sowing doubt. And that was the big problem. In many ways, they had to ask for lab reports because they couldn't remember certain things. But one thing they really struggled with was motive. They could not understand, especially because you couldn't place Miguel directly on the scene, even though they weren't sure he was there or not. But there was no evidence that they had been friends

30:58or knew each other or anything like that. And they were really impacted by the gruesomeness of the crime scene. A gentleman who was there who was on the jury was like, it still impacts me to this day. So they were impacted by the idea that in such a gruesome crime scene, with such a violent crime, why? Why? And so they had to list on a board the things they were to consider and the things that they did not have to consider. And they had to keep referring back to the board because people kept asking, well, why, why? Yeah, but we don't have to prove motive. We have to prove, did he violate these tenets of the law? And so they had to keep going back to it, hammering away, and they finally got to a point of a guilty verdict, but they struggled with it every step of

31:37the way. Right. They did struggle. Well, Pat, I want to ask you, because it was 14 years for this family, the Hedgebrook family, and they finally, I guess, got answers. But I want to ask you, and then Ryan, I want your take on it too. They finally did get an answer, but do you think they really understood what happened at the end of all of this from what you could see of them in court? No, no, no. And you know, I have to tell you, before the trial, I spent a lot of time with members of the tribe. And across the board, my feeling from talking to a lot of people involved on the family side is that, yes, Olivares, they believe God what he deserved. But I think a lot of people feel that that's the story, the complete story

32:24has not been told. Yeah. Yeah. Ryan, I was wondering too, because as you said, they couldn't quite figure out motive. Yes, the family did get a conclusion, but do you think they have a sense of what happened and why? No, I don't think they do at all. And I think it really needs to be said that like, faith was a pillar of their community. I mean, I just can't, you think about someone young who had their whole life ahead of them, who got a full ride to one of the top universities and whose desire was to go back and help her people. Like that was who she was about. She was the pride of their family. And so for them, it's like, this is not a young woman who provokes people. This is a young woman who has her heart on her sleeve

33:06and people love her and has friends all over on campus. Her community loves her. They could not fathom why any of this would happen. So there's been a verdict. There's been a decision. This man is now behind bars. But for them, I can't imagine how difficult this moment must be. Because for them, they are still left with the idea of, for someone who in our family was almost like a godsend, why would this happen to them? And will we ever really know why? Right, right. Well, that's what happens so often in these cases. Oftentimes people do feel that they at least can have some peace, but you wonder if they ever will. But it is sort of interesting. Her name is Faith, and this is a family of great faith. And, you know, the only hope is that maybe somehow over

33:49time, they will be able to maybe find something, some comfort in the fact that it's over. But, you know, these cases go on for a while. Ryan, thank you again for taking some time. I know you're still reeling from what has been a very long week, but thank you for coming in and doing it. And Pat, of course, always, your incredible reporting is always fabulous and great to have you with us. Thanks for inviting me. And it was lovely working alongside Ryan today, so I appreciate that. Yeah, thank you, Pat. Thank you, Debra. Absolutely. Well, I'm sure we may be hearing more about this story at some point. You never know where it's all going to go, but we thank you for choosing to spend your time with us today.

34:22And of course, you can find 2020 on Friday nights on ABC, and you can stream episodes just like this one anytime on Disney Plus and Hulu. Take care, everybody. Hi, I'm Katie, your friend and jeweler at Shane Company. As a Shane Company jewelry consultant and gift insider, here are my top three engagement ring trends for a magical holiday proposal. Vintage inspired styles with intricate details, bold rings with thicker gold bands, and unique diamond shapes like antique cushion. We have so many beautiful ring styles and diamonds in stock to compare side by side. Plus, we'll protect your ring with our all-inclusive free lifetime warranty. Visit us in-store or at shaneco.com. Shane Company, your friend in jeweler.

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